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I also dislike the TikTokification of everything, but I also know that all of us on this platform are wrong in the sense that we're not the user being designed

I also dislike the TikTokification of everything, but I also know that all of us on this platform are wrong in the sense that we're not the user being designed for. Consumer apps at massive scale like TikTok and Netflix don't design for nerds like us, they design for the average person. Actually, they design for the average behavior of the average person. And most people on this planet are more or less happy with whatever they're presented with because they don't care about technology. And when you control what's presented to people, not they (and they don't care), you can push them to consume what you want them to consume. I heard a YC group partner once that he's worked with a ton of delivery apps. Many of them start out as differentiated apps for ordering from the best "hole in the wall" places or the app for authentic foreign cuisines, only to discover that the best growth hack is getting McDonald's on the app, because that'll be your top seller, instantly. Most people just do the default thing everyone does—and we're probably all like that in one aspect or another of our lives, and that's who many experiences are designed for.

bombcar 2y ago
There’s a lot of money to be made in letting people order takeout from McDonalds while not feeling like the kind of person who orders takeout from McDonald’s.
- FinnLobsien 2y ago
  I hate that more than McDonald's. The restaurants making mediocre-tasting but instagramable food in a place that spent more on the interior design consultant than the chef who created the menu. At least McDonald's doesn't pretend.
- mattgreenrocks 2y ago
  This is the idea of premium mediocre: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2017/08/17/the-premium-mediocre-life-of-maya-millennial/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2017/08/17/the-premium-mediocre-l...
mppm 2y ago
> And most people on this planet are more or less happy with whatever they're presented with because they don't care about technology. I think this is a debatable statement. It could be true, but I am increasingly convinced that enshittification, TikTokification, AIfication, etc. is proceeding despite what the average person wants. Average does not mean gaping, uninspired idiot. I think people in general do notice that everything is broken, short-lived, watered down and ad-ridden. But what to do? When every company does it, voting with your wallet becomes practically impossible.
- FinnLobsien 2y ago
  No, I totally don't mean that people are idiots, I think it's largely ignorance. I, for instance am fully ignorant of audio stuff. I'm mostly happy with Sony/Apple audio products, which audiophiles probably feel the same way I feel about chain restaurants. It's true that it's also increasingly easier to be presented with an average choice because everything is aggregated somewhere and will mostly converge on a few options. To your other point, a lot of this is also on an indifference curve. I said what the average person wants, not what the average person is ecstatic about. But most people don't spend time seeking out the best possible experience and go with the good enough experience they're presented with.
bluGill 2y ago
Which is a real problem for the rare person (ie me) who doesn't like McDonalds. Go to a new city and I get recommendations of McDonalds, and the dozen "you won't believe we are not McDonalds" - never mind that I don't like burgers, that is about all I can find when looking for a meal.
- FinnLobsien 2y ago
  True. Though I wouldn't even say it's rare to not like McDonald's. But McDonald's is an option most people are kinda okay with, which is what they optimize for. Nobody will ever describe McDonald's as a transcendental experience. But it's consistent (same everywhere) and everyone can agree on it (vs. convincing a group to order from a random Indian place). On HN, we're obsessive weirdos who WILL seek out niche experiences (the interface of this very website is a case in point). But most people aren't.
  - cubefox 2y ago
    A substantial fraction of us might indeed have some degree of ASD or ADHD.
    - FinnLobsien 2y ago
      Or maybe we're just nerds, not everything needs to qualify as a clinical diagnosis
      - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
        This comment is distinctly incurious. Sure, it doesn't have to be a clinical diagnosis but that's also kinda the point of talking about it so casually: it doesn't always have to rise to the level of a clinical diagnosis. Some people will not be satisfied with the "we're just nerds" explanation and that's okay too. (Indeed, obsessive weirdos, eh?)
        cubefox 2y ago
klabb3 2y ago
Overwhelmingly, products are designed to maximize total recurring user interaction, aka engagement or attention grabbing. This is the proxy for ad revenue, the most popular business model (even if Netflix is different). Look at Quora, LinkedIn and even SO, which essentially degraded into content farms for these reasons, largely downstream of the Google search funnel. But engagement maximization looks the same everywhere – it’s communicating with the amygdala of the user, not their consciousness. And in a way, everyone’s amygdala is kind of the same and generic (sugar foods, violence, rage bait, boobs, chock value etc). Products that are largely designed for higher consciousness are more varied, such as most books. But those drive less engagement. The amygdala wants more of the same, and the prefrontal cortex seems to want variation. My view is that you can’t have the chocolate muffins and raw carrots on the same plate, or a bookshelf with both Dostoevsky and Playboy magazines. You have to compartmentalize to protect yourself from your own amygdala. Same goes for media. Even well meaning product managers will be completely fooled if they simply follow the metrics.
- FinnLobsien 2y ago
  Yep, totally. Also, much of Netflix's growth now comes from their ad-supported tier, so they're definitely part of that attention economy. And part of the problem is that if somebody (TikTok) has the most engaging format possible (vertical short-form video) and you (Substack, Reddit, LinkedIn, etc.) don't, you're at a strict disadvantage. So you enable short-form video, boost it in the algorithm, etc. no matter if it's a fit with your product because people will watch it if it's put in front of them. > My view is that you can’t have the chocolate muffins and raw carrots on the same plate, or a bookshelf with both Dostoevsky and Playboy magazines. And the problem is that in media, the prefrontal cortex stuff will never make as much money as the amygdala stuff, so few platforms will survive by focusing on the prefrontal cortex stuff. A big reason HN is still so cozy and surfaces cool articles and discussions is because YC doesn't have to monetize it or optimize for engagement. But imagine trying to start HN today...
  - famahar 2y ago
    >But imagine trying to start HN today... Reddit is a good example of what a monetized version could look like. It's a shell of its former self. NFT avatar customization, engagement achievements, ads in feed and comments, layers of friction to simplify the experience. Such a mess.
conductr 2y ago
> Actually, they design for the average behavior of the average person. They're generally designed for engagement. Nobody is particularly asking for this type of experience it's just that Tiktok has discovered the most addictive - eh hum, I mean engaging - experience thus far. So they're being copied. Netflix is a little different though as if people open the app and always see the same top titles listed due to it being an alphabetical index, then they quickly think nothing new is ever there. Or, it's too hard to find. So they're tricking people into thinking there's a bunch of fresh/good content. There's also a cultural phenomenon where everyone discusses "what shows have you been watching lately?" so the Trending aspects of their recommendations is to help people get on board with the trend; and, to push momentum and create the trend too obviously.
- FinnLobsien 2y ago
  Right, so I might have to update my statement to "they design for the most likely behavior of the average person."
techpineapple 2y ago
I think I understand the economics here, but it bugs me there aren't more slow-growth self-funded places to fill in these niches.
- FinnLobsien 2y ago
  The problem is either network effects (in social media) or massive CapEx (Spotify, Netflix). In categories where neither is the case, you can usually find beautiful alternatives from indie makers or small businesses. The issue with streaming and social media is that they represent 90%+ of our cultural narrative now, so it feels like there's no escape.

bombcar 2y ago

There’s a lot of money to be made in letting people order takeout from McDonalds while not feeling like the kind of person who orders takeout from McDonald’s.

FinnLobsien 2y ago
I hate that more than McDonald's. The restaurants making mediocre-tasting but instagramable food in a place that spent more on the interior design consultant than the chef who created the menu. At least McDonald's doesn't pretend.
mattgreenrocks 2y ago
This is the idea of premium mediocre: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2017/08/17/the-premium-mediocre-life-of-maya-millennial/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2017/08/17/the-premium-mediocre-l...

mppm 2y ago

> And most people on this planet are more or less happy with whatever they're presented with because they don't care about technology. I think this is a debatable statement. It could be true, but I am increasingly convinced that enshittification, TikTokification, AIfication, etc. is proceeding despite what the average person wants. Average does not mean gaping, uninspired idiot. I think people in general do notice that everything is broken, short-lived, watered down and ad-ridden. But what to do? When every company does it, voting with your wallet becomes practically impossible.

FinnLobsien 2y ago
No, I totally don't mean that people are idiots, I think it's largely ignorance. I, for instance am fully ignorant of audio stuff. I'm mostly happy with Sony/Apple audio products, which audiophiles probably feel the same way I feel about chain restaurants. It's true that it's also increasingly easier to be presented with an average choice because everything is aggregated somewhere and will mostly converge on a few options. To your other point, a lot of this is also on an indifference curve. I said what the average person wants, not what the average person is ecstatic about. But most people don't spend time seeking out the best possible experience and go with the good enough experience they're presented with.

bluGill 2y ago

Which is a real problem for the rare person (ie me) who doesn't like McDonalds. Go to a new city and I get recommendations of McDonalds, and the dozen "you won't believe we are not McDonalds" - never mind that I don't like burgers, that is about all I can find when looking for a meal.

FinnLobsien 2y ago
True. Though I wouldn't even say it's rare to not like McDonald's. But McDonald's is an option most people are kinda okay with, which is what they optimize for. Nobody will ever describe McDonald's as a transcendental experience. But it's consistent (same everywhere) and everyone can agree on it (vs. convincing a group to order from a random Indian place). On HN, we're obsessive weirdos who WILL seek out niche experiences (the interface of this very website is a case in point). But most people aren't.
- cubefox 2y ago
  A substantial fraction of us might indeed have some degree of ASD or ADHD.
  - FinnLobsien 2y ago
    Or maybe we're just nerds, not everything needs to qualify as a clinical diagnosis
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
      This comment is distinctly incurious. Sure, it doesn't have to be a clinical diagnosis but that's also kinda the point of talking about it so casually: it doesn't always have to rise to the level of a clinical diagnosis. Some people will not be satisfied with the "we're just nerds" explanation and that's okay too. (Indeed, obsessive weirdos, eh?)
      - cubefox 2y ago

klabb3 2y ago

Overwhelmingly, products are designed to maximize total recurring user interaction, aka engagement or attention grabbing. This is the proxy for ad revenue, the most popular business model (even if Netflix is different). Look at Quora, LinkedIn and even SO, which essentially degraded into content farms for these reasons, largely downstream of the Google search funnel. But engagement maximization looks the same everywhere – it’s communicating with the amygdala of the user, not their consciousness. And in a way, everyone’s amygdala is kind of the same and generic (sugar foods, violence, rage bait, boobs, chock value etc). Products that are largely designed for higher consciousness are more varied, such as most books. But those drive less engagement. The amygdala wants more of the same, and the prefrontal cortex seems to want variation. My view is that you can’t have the chocolate muffins and raw carrots on the same plate, or a bookshelf with both Dostoevsky and Playboy magazines. You have to compartmentalize to protect yourself from your own amygdala. Same goes for media. Even well meaning product managers will be completely fooled if they simply follow the metrics.

FinnLobsien 2y ago
Yep, totally. Also, much of Netflix's growth now comes from their ad-supported tier, so they're definitely part of that attention economy. And part of the problem is that if somebody (TikTok) has the most engaging format possible (vertical short-form video) and you (Substack, Reddit, LinkedIn, etc.) don't, you're at a strict disadvantage. So you enable short-form video, boost it in the algorithm, etc. no matter if it's a fit with your product because people will watch it if it's put in front of them. > My view is that you can’t have the chocolate muffins and raw carrots on the same plate, or a bookshelf with both Dostoevsky and Playboy magazines. And the problem is that in media, the prefrontal cortex stuff will never make as much money as the amygdala stuff, so few platforms will survive by focusing on the prefrontal cortex stuff. A big reason HN is still so cozy and surfaces cool articles and discussions is because YC doesn't have to monetize it or optimize for engagement. But imagine trying to start HN today...
- famahar 2y ago
  >But imagine trying to start HN today... Reddit is a good example of what a monetized version could look like. It's a shell of its former self. NFT avatar customization, engagement achievements, ads in feed and comments, layers of friction to simplify the experience. Such a mess.

conductr 2y ago

> Actually, they design for the average behavior of the average person. They're generally designed for engagement. Nobody is particularly asking for this type of experience it's just that Tiktok has discovered the most addictive - eh hum, I mean engaging - experience thus far. So they're being copied. Netflix is a little different though as if people open the app and always see the same top titles listed due to it being an alphabetical index, then they quickly think nothing new is ever there. Or, it's too hard to find. So they're tricking people into thinking there's a bunch of fresh/good content. There's also a cultural phenomenon where everyone discusses "what shows have you been watching lately?" so the Trending aspects of their recommendations is to help people get on board with the trend; and, to push momentum and create the trend too obviously.

FinnLobsien 2y ago
Right, so I might have to update my statement to "they design for the most likely behavior of the average person."

techpineapple 2y ago

I think I understand the economics here, but it bugs me there aren't more slow-growth self-funded places to fill in these niches.

FinnLobsien 2y ago
The problem is either network effects (in social media) or massive CapEx (Spotify, Netflix). In categories where neither is the case, you can usually find beautiful alternatives from indie makers or small businesses. The issue with streaming and social media is that they represent 90%+ of our cultural narrative now, so it feels like there's no escape.