4 ms·

Cars and pedestrian/bikes are an apple to oranges comparison. Its like comparing how we regulate cars to private planes. They just have completely different p

by 7952 2y ago

Cars and pedestrian/bikes are an apple to oranges comparison. Its like comparing how we regulate cars to private planes. They just have completely different potential to hurt other people. Placing such a heavy burden on pedestrians/cyclists is just disproportionate to the threat they pose. There is no reason to expect a level play field relative to cars because they are just so different. And to be clear people should be careful and look after their own safety. But that does not mean they have some moral obligation to help drivers limit the threat they pose. Nor is it reasonable to expect pedestrians to be perfect 100% of the time. Getting drunk, glancing at your phone, being distracted should not be a death sentance.

AStonesThrow 2y ago
> Motorists are confused because you're asking them to break the traffic laws. I am absolutely not asking anyone to break any law. https://m.xkcd.com/2932/ https://m.xkcd.com/2932/ After reading this comic and understanding its real-life implications, I always avoid signaling any motorist to take action now. I simply indicate hesitancy to them, or I just turn around and loiter on the corner, looking in the opposite direction and indicating with my entire body that I have no intention of walking into their path. It is always a pedestrian's prerogative to stop, to wait, to not move forward nor backwards, unless we're in the middle of the street or something, you know? I can even sit down on the curb, and take 5 minutes to breathe, if there's no bench available. Completely legal. So this happens at green-light intersections as well as driveways and other junctures. At a residential driveway, I'll carefully check for vehicles intending to pull in or out, before I start crossing it. Because I'm often walking down stroads that are 35mph+. I would rather hang back, take a rest from walking, and allow traffic to smoothly exit that stroad, than insist on my own legal right-of-way. So no, I'm not requesting or requiring any behavior at all from other motorists or road-users. I'm simply standing still and turning aside and failing to plow through a shared space, OK? Now I live in Metro Phoenix and Tempe is a college-town. So I see all kinds of traffic hijinx. So people may certainly break traffic laws, but motorists really don't do it much at all, in proportion to the heavy traffic that plagues all our streets here. Motorists seldom surprise or shock me by doing really crazy maneuvers. Yes, I've seen cars drive the wrong-way on a stroad for like, 1/4th block. Yes, I've seen cars make left turns that are technically illegal. But in general, they definitely stop for red lights (because the cops patrol them and so do the cameras take photos and mail them tickets!) and they definitely do not drive 100mph in a 35 or anything crazy, all things being equal. I frequently ride Veyo, taxis, Uber, and Lyft, and all those drivers are quite safe. I also ride public transit so much: those are the safest operators on the road, bar none. They are hired for their clean records and excellent prudence. I trust public transit with my life, whether I'm in the bus, or crossing the street. Out on those stroads I feel extremely safe as a pedestrian, crossing the street legally, or in a crosswalk, or just strolling down the sidewalk. If motorists routinely broke traffic laws, I wouldn't feel safe and I'd be expecting surprises! But generally motorists act completely sane, even if they're staring at their SMS! Now it is possible for a single pedestrian, a cyclist, or a scooter to really cause a big fuckin' accident. I contend that any surprise from a person on foot will mess up the flow of traffic. I have seen middle-school students throwing drinks at one another on the sidewalk, one of them runs into the road to avoid getting drenched, and they're right in front of an oncoming bus going 20-25mph. Holy crap. People have definitely walked right under the light rail and been literally dragged for yards and yards, before the operator could apply the brakes, and the first-responders could pry their dead corpses out. I personally leapt out in front of a Waymo going 35mph once, just to see if it would dodge me (it did but I was crazy). I have caused a significant amount of road-range and honking and really angry pedal-stompers by riding a manual bicycle and an electric scooter in the traffic lanes (35-40mph limits). The scooters can go max 17mph and it's 100% legal for me to take such a traffic lane, and I play it extremely safe, but still the motorists become enraged and they engage in risky behavior. If I weren't so safe I could cause a major pile-up with that scooter and harm myself in the process, as well. There are comprehensive laws on Tempe's books for people who operate bicycles and eScooters. I read some of them. If an eScooter is riding on the sidewalk, they can't go past 5mph and they need to yield for everyone (like pedestrians and wheelchairs). There were so many restrictions on sidewalk-riders, I decided that riding scooters and bicycles in the street is far more straightforward (can go up to 17mph rather than 5 plus frequent stops!) So your assertion that pedestrians can't hurt anyone is false. All a pedestrian needs to do is leverage a lot of momentum by surprising the operator thereof. And then all hell can break loose. Walking on the sidewalk, I routinely encounter illegal scooters, illegal powered cycles, really aggressive wheelchair users, and all sorts of idiot behavior. You simply can get away with murder, literally, on any sidewalk around here, because there's nearly no accountability for violations, compared to motorists on the roads. Last week there was a pack of 3 boys wearing helmets and BMX gear, riding their bicycles down the sidewalk (and up onto lawns and boulevard strips, commanding as much width as possible), and clearly intending to disrupt and annoy passengers on the bus who were boarding and disembarking. They were able to maintain the exact pace of the bus I rode w.r.t. all its designated stops, and they were really determined to be entitled little jerkoffs, sticking it to the poor man. Motorists can be held accountable for everything by means of traffic laws, driver licenses, vehicle registrations, and insurance policies. There is a huge amount of legal leverage over any driver on the road that simply never applies to peds or cyclists or riders of scooters or narcocorridos or coyotes around here. Therefore I feel 100% justified in being courteous and giving deference to everyone else. Defensive driving translates to "defensive walking" or "defensive scooting" for me, these days. I'm 53 years old, and I expect to see 54 with all my limbs intact.
- Mawr 2y ago
  I feel kinda bad already for engaging further, because you sound slightly mentally off overall and stuff like "I personally leapt out in front of a Waymo going 35mph once, just to see if it would dodge me (it did but I was crazy)." doesn't help, but... > Now it is possible for a single pedestrian, a cyclist, or a scooter to really cause a big fuckin' accident. [...] Everything you describe here results in the pedestrian themselves dying. That's not comparable to a car plowing into a bus stop, killing a family on the sidewalk, etc. > All a pedestrian needs to do is leverage a lot of momentum by surprising the operator thereof. It is physically and biologically impossible for a ~100kg human to exert enough force to surprise anyone in a traffic scenario. Any movement a human makes is going to require windup time proportional to the resulting force/momentum. Therefore, the only people who are ever "surprised" by something a pedestrian did were not paying enough attention to their surroundings. > Walking on the sidewalk, I routinely encounter illegal scooters, illegal powered cycles, really aggressive wheelchair users, and all sorts of idiot behavior. Man, those aggressive wheelchair users are a real menace. One swerved in front of me just the other day, I almost lost a leg. > You simply can get away with murder, literally, on any sidewalk around here, because there's nearly no accountability for violations, compared to motorists on the roads. Literally couldn't be more wrong. The phrase "if you want to kill someone, use a car" exists for a reason.

by 7952 2y ago

AStonesThrow 2y ago

> Motorists are confused because you're asking them to break the traffic laws. I am absolutely not asking anyone to break any law. https://m.xkcd.com/2932/ https://m.xkcd.com/2932/ After reading this comic and understanding its real-life implications, I always avoid signaling any motorist to take action now. I simply indicate hesitancy to them, or I just turn around and loiter on the corner, looking in the opposite direction and indicating with my entire body that I have no intention of walking into their path. It is always a pedestrian's prerogative to stop, to wait, to not move forward nor backwards, unless we're in the middle of the street or something, you know? I can even sit down on the curb, and take 5 minutes to breathe, if there's no bench available. Completely legal. So this happens at green-light intersections as well as driveways and other junctures. At a residential driveway, I'll carefully check for vehicles intending to pull in or out, before I start crossing it. Because I'm often walking down stroads that are 35mph+. I would rather hang back, take a rest from walking, and allow traffic to smoothly exit that stroad, than insist on my own legal right-of-way. So no, I'm not requesting or requiring any behavior at all from other motorists or road-users. I'm simply standing still and turning aside and failing to plow through a shared space, OK? Now I live in Metro Phoenix and Tempe is a college-town. So I see all kinds of traffic hijinx. So people may certainly break traffic laws, but motorists really don't do it much at all, in proportion to the heavy traffic that plagues all our streets here. Motorists seldom surprise or shock me by doing really crazy maneuvers. Yes, I've seen cars drive the wrong-way on a stroad for like, 1/4th block. Yes, I've seen cars make left turns that are technically illegal. But in general, they definitely stop for red lights (because the cops patrol them and so do the cameras take photos and mail them tickets!) and they definitely do not drive 100mph in a 35 or anything crazy, all things being equal. I frequently ride Veyo, taxis, Uber, and Lyft, and all those drivers are quite safe. I also ride public transit so much: those are the safest operators on the road, bar none. They are hired for their clean records and excellent prudence. I trust public transit with my life, whether I'm in the bus, or crossing the street. Out on those stroads I feel extremely safe as a pedestrian, crossing the street legally, or in a crosswalk, or just strolling down the sidewalk. If motorists routinely broke traffic laws, I wouldn't feel safe and I'd be expecting surprises! But generally motorists act completely sane, even if they're staring at their SMS! Now it is possible for a single pedestrian, a cyclist, or a scooter to really cause a big fuckin' accident. I contend that any surprise from a person on foot will mess up the flow of traffic. I have seen middle-school students throwing drinks at one another on the sidewalk, one of them runs into the road to avoid getting drenched, and they're right in front of an oncoming bus going 20-25mph. Holy crap. People have definitely walked right under the light rail and been literally dragged for yards and yards, before the operator could apply the brakes, and the first-responders could pry their dead corpses out. I personally leapt out in front of a Waymo going 35mph once, just to see if it would dodge me (it did but I was crazy). I have caused a significant amount of road-range and honking and really angry pedal-stompers by riding a manual bicycle and an electric scooter in the traffic lanes (35-40mph limits). The scooters can go max 17mph and it's 100% legal for me to take such a traffic lane, and I play it extremely safe, but still the motorists become enraged and they engage in risky behavior. If I weren't so safe I could cause a major pile-up with that scooter and harm myself in the process, as well. There are comprehensive laws on Tempe's books for people who operate bicycles and eScooters. I read some of them. If an eScooter is riding on the sidewalk, they can't go past 5mph and they need to yield for everyone (like pedestrians and wheelchairs). There were so many restrictions on sidewalk-riders, I decided that riding scooters and bicycles in the street is far more straightforward (can go up to 17mph rather than 5 plus frequent stops!) So your assertion that pedestrians can't hurt anyone is false. All a pedestrian needs to do is leverage a lot of momentum by surprising the operator thereof. And then all hell can break loose. Walking on the sidewalk, I routinely encounter illegal scooters, illegal powered cycles, really aggressive wheelchair users, and all sorts of idiot behavior. You simply can get away with murder, literally, on any sidewalk around here, because there's nearly no accountability for violations, compared to motorists on the roads. Last week there was a pack of 3 boys wearing helmets and BMX gear, riding their bicycles down the sidewalk (and up onto lawns and boulevard strips, commanding as much width as possible), and clearly intending to disrupt and annoy passengers on the bus who were boarding and disembarking. They were able to maintain the exact pace of the bus I rode w.r.t. all its designated stops, and they were really determined to be entitled little jerkoffs, sticking it to the poor man. Motorists can be held accountable for everything by means of traffic laws, driver licenses, vehicle registrations, and insurance policies. There is a huge amount of legal leverage over any driver on the road that simply never applies to peds or cyclists or riders of scooters or narcocorridos or coyotes around here. Therefore I feel 100% justified in being courteous and giving deference to everyone else. Defensive driving translates to "defensive walking" or "defensive scooting" for me, these days. I'm 53 years old, and I expect to see 54 with all my limbs intact.

Mawr 2y ago
I feel kinda bad already for engaging further, because you sound slightly mentally off overall and stuff like "I personally leapt out in front of a Waymo going 35mph once, just to see if it would dodge me (it did but I was crazy)." doesn't help, but... > Now it is possible for a single pedestrian, a cyclist, or a scooter to really cause a big fuckin' accident. [...] Everything you describe here results in the pedestrian themselves dying. That's not comparable to a car plowing into a bus stop, killing a family on the sidewalk, etc. > All a pedestrian needs to do is leverage a lot of momentum by surprising the operator thereof. It is physically and biologically impossible for a ~100kg human to exert enough force to surprise anyone in a traffic scenario. Any movement a human makes is going to require windup time proportional to the resulting force/momentum. Therefore, the only people who are ever "surprised" by something a pedestrian did were not paying enough attention to their surroundings. > Walking on the sidewalk, I routinely encounter illegal scooters, illegal powered cycles, really aggressive wheelchair users, and all sorts of idiot behavior. Man, those aggressive wheelchair users are a real menace. One swerved in front of me just the other day, I almost lost a leg. > You simply can get away with murder, literally, on any sidewalk around here, because there's nearly no accountability for violations, compared to motorists on the roads. Literally couldn't be more wrong. The phrase "if you want to kill someone, use a car" exists for a reason.