6 ms·

Something very strange to me in my urban setting is the dichotomy between motorists and everything else on the road. You can really rely on everyone driving a

Something very strange to me in my urban setting is the dichotomy between motorists and everything else on the road. You can really rely on everyone driving a motor vehicle to obey practically every traffic law every time. That is, they stop for red lights, they stay in lanes, make legal/safe turns; they generally stay near the speed limit and don’t egregiously violate it. And they know that driving is a privilege and that violations can cost them their license, which will cost them their job, their freedom and a lot of things. On the other hand we’ve got cyclists, pedestrians, scooters, wheelchairs: all sorts of other conveyances on the road, and they basically ignore every traffic law imaginable. Most of those don’t need licensing, and I’m really not clear on the consequences for breaking laws, but often none at all. It’s not like a judge can revoke your privilege to walk on the sidewalk if you’re a jaywalker, and the state wouldn’t ever financially ruin somebody with court fines, for breaking traffic laws on a bicycle or scooter anyway. So it’s a really crazy situation, for me as a pedestrian, because I can count on motorists to obey laws, but everybody else is absolutely Lord of the Flies / Critical Mass around here. It’s a college town, and so there’s lots of young adults and/or foreigners, and they don’t know the laws, and they don’t care, and they walk wherever they want, and they scoot wherever they want, and they bike whatever direction they care about. And traffic laws be damned. Personally, I’m the slowest and smallest thing on the road, and I eagerly defer to everything else that’s bigger and faster than me. It often confuses motorists when I permit them to enter a driveway rather than walk in front of them. Many motorists are extremely over cautious about pedestrians, and it’s nearly always difficult to convince them that I’m yielding my right-of-way— on foot— and permitting them to do what they want. I greatly appreciate vehicles that signal properly and manifest their intentions so that I can anticipate them, because I often find myself directly watching tires and other external controls, in order to get the best signal for a driver’s intentions, regardless of how they're blinkers are working— especially BMWs...

goda90 2y ago
> You can really rely on everyone driving a motor vehicle to obey practically every traffic law every time. That is, they stop for red lights, they stay in lanes, make legal/safe turns; they generally stay near the speed limit and don’t egregiously violate it. And they know that driving is a privilege and that violations can cost them their license, which will cost them their job, their freedom and a lot of things. Where do you live that this is your observation? This is not what I observe in the United States. Speeding is rampant. Distracted driving is rampant. People roll through stop signs and run red lights enough that everyone should watch out for it. > It’s a college town, and so there’s lots of young adults and/or foreigners, and they don’t know the laws, and they don’t care, and they walk wherever they want, and they scoot wherever they want, and they bike whatever direction they care about. And traffic laws be damned. I'm curious what the traffic laws actually are for pedestrians and cyclists in your town. I imagine almost all of them are in regards to interactions with cars, since a pedestrian running into another pedestrian is rarely a life threatening scenario so having a law to enforce pedestrian only traffic isn't a big deal. >It often confuses motorists when I permit them to enter a driveway rather than walk in front of them. Many motorists are extremely over cautious about pedestrians, and it’s nearly always difficult to convince them that I’m yielding my right-of-way— on foot— and permitting them to do what they want. In many places the traffic law is to give pedestrians right-of-way over vehicles at otherwise uncontrolled junctions. Motorists are confused because you're asking them to break the traffic laws.
7952 2y ago
Cars and pedestrian/bikes are an apple to oranges comparison. Its like comparing how we regulate cars to private planes. They just have completely different potential to hurt other people. Placing such a heavy burden on pedestrians/cyclists is just disproportionate to the threat they pose. There is no reason to expect a level play field relative to cars because they are just so different. And to be clear people should be careful and look after their own safety. But that does not mean they have some moral obligation to help drivers limit the threat they pose. Nor is it reasonable to expect pedestrians to be perfect 100% of the time. Getting drunk, glancing at your phone, being distracted should not be a death sentance.
- AStonesThrow 2y ago
  > Motorists are confused because you're asking them to break the traffic laws. I am absolutely not asking anyone to break any law. https://m.xkcd.com/2932/ https://m.xkcd.com/2932/ After reading this comic and understanding its real-life implications, I always avoid signaling any motorist to take action now. I simply indicate hesitancy to them, or I just turn around and loiter on the corner, looking in the opposite direction and indicating with my entire body that I have no intention of walking into their path. It is always a pedestrian's prerogative to stop, to wait, to not move forward nor backwards, unless we're in the middle of the street or something, you know? I can even sit down on the curb, and take 5 minutes to breathe, if there's no bench available. Completely legal. So this happens at green-light intersections as well as driveways and other junctures. At a residential driveway, I'll carefully check for vehicles intending to pull in or out, before I start crossing it. Because I'm often walking down stroads that are 35mph+. I would rather hang back, take a rest from walking, and allow traffic to smoothly exit that stroad, than insist on my own legal right-of-way. So no, I'm not requesting or requiring any behavior at all from other motorists or road-users. I'm simply standing still and turning aside and failing to plow through a shared space, OK? Now I live in Metro Phoenix and Tempe is a college-town. So I see all kinds of traffic hijinx. So people may certainly break traffic laws, but motorists really don't do it much at all, in proportion to the heavy traffic that plagues all our streets here. Motorists seldom surprise or shock me by doing really crazy maneuvers. Yes, I've seen cars drive the wrong-way on a stroad for like, 1/4th block. Yes, I've seen cars make left turns that are technically illegal. But in general, they definitely stop for red lights (because the cops patrol them and so do the cameras take photos and mail them tickets!) and they definitely do not drive 100mph in a 35 or anything crazy, all things being equal. I frequently ride Veyo, taxis, Uber, and Lyft, and all those drivers are quite safe. I also ride public transit so much: those are the safest operators on the road, bar none. They are hired for their clean records and excellent prudence. I trust public transit with my life, whether I'm in the bus, or crossing the street. Out on those stroads I feel extremely safe as a pedestrian, crossing the street legally, or in a crosswalk, or just strolling down the sidewalk. If motorists routinely broke traffic laws, I wouldn't feel safe and I'd be expecting surprises! But generally motorists act completely sane, even if they're staring at their SMS! Now it is possible for a single pedestrian, a cyclist, or a scooter to really cause a big fuckin' accident. I contend that any surprise from a person on foot will mess up the flow of traffic. I have seen middle-school students throwing drinks at one another on the sidewalk, one of them runs into the road to avoid getting drenched, and they're right in front of an oncoming bus going 20-25mph. Holy crap. People have definitely walked right under the light rail and been literally dragged for yards and yards, before the operator could apply the brakes, and the first-responders could pry their dead corpses out. I personally leapt out in front of a Waymo going 35mph once, just to see if it would dodge me (it did but I was crazy). I have caused a significant amount of road-range and honking and really angry pedal-stompers by riding a manual bicycle and an electric scooter in the traffic lanes (35-40mph limits). The scooters can go max 17mph and it's 100% legal for me to take such a traffic lane, and I play it extremely safe, but still the motorists become enraged and they engage in risky behavior. If I weren't so safe I could cause a major pile-up with that scooter and harm myself in the process, as well. There are comprehensive laws on Tempe's books for people who operate bicycles and eScooters. I read some of them. If an eScooter is riding on the sidewalk, they can't go past 5mph and they need to yield for everyone (like pedestrians and wheelchairs). There were so many restrictions on sidewalk-riders, I decided that riding scooters and bicycles in the street is far more straightforward (can go up to 17mph rather than 5 plus frequent stops!) So your assertion that pedestrians can't hurt anyone is false. All a pedestrian needs to do is leverage a lot of momentum by surprising the operator thereof. And then all hell can break loose. Walking on the sidewalk, I routinely encounter illegal scooters, illegal powered cycles, really aggressive wheelchair users, and all sorts of idiot behavior. You simply can get away with murder, literally, on any sidewalk around here, because there's nearly no accountability for violations, compared to motorists on the roads. Last week there was a pack of 3 boys wearing helmets and BMX gear, riding their bicycles down the sidewalk (and up onto lawns and boulevard strips, commanding as much width as possible), and clearly intending to disrupt and annoy passengers on the bus who were boarding and disembarking. They were able to maintain the exact pace of the bus I rode w.r.t. all its designated stops, and they were really determined to be entitled little jerkoffs, sticking it to the poor man. Motorists can be held accountable for everything by means of traffic laws, driver licenses, vehicle registrations, and insurance policies. There is a huge amount of legal leverage over any driver on the road that simply never applies to peds or cyclists or riders of scooters or narcocorridos or coyotes around here. Therefore I feel 100% justified in being courteous and giving deference to everyone else. Defensive driving translates to "defensive walking" or "defensive scooting" for me, these days. I'm 53 years old, and I expect to see 54 with all my limbs intact.
Spooky23 2y ago
You make a good point about cyclists, some of whom are only surpassed in misery by swimmers. But the focus on cars is a risk calculus Probability*impact. If the bike guy hits you, you’ll fall and maybe get hurt. If a car hits you at 30, you’re dead or hospitalized. We rightly empathize threat to life over lower chance of relatively minor injury.
hansvm 2y ago
> You can really rely on everyone driving a motor vehicle to obey practically every traffic law every time. That is, they stop for red lights, they stay in lanes, make legal/safe turns; they generally stay near the speed limit and don’t egregiously violate it. And they know that driving is a privilege and that violations can cost them their license, which will cost them their job, their freedom and a lot of things. What utopia do you live in? There's a major wreck at least once each year a couple blocks away when too many people speed while blowing the stop sign at the same time. There's a motorcyclist routinely going 115mph+ through our 25mph neighborhood, and despite having gotten the police to give him stern warnings on three separate occasions he still hasn't stopped (has slowed down to ~80 most days). The median minimum speed at stop signs is 10mph, which might sound safe, but it's faster if you happen to be crossing the crosswalk at the same time because they have to make sure they can get in front of you -- usually misjudging and requiring me to jump away. And you're right that people usually stay in their lanes ... on straight segments ... on curves I have to be prepared to take evasive action as some pickup truck inevitably borrows half my lane while I'm beside them. Sure, cyclists usually brazenly flaunt traffic stops, speed limits, and the requirement to share the road, but it's not anywhere near as bad as what the cars are doing.
Mawr 2y ago
It is not right for you to choose to operate a deadly vehicle and then offload the dangers of that choice onto innocent bystanders. No pedestrian has forced you to drive a dangerous car around. Therefore, yes, it is the responsibility of the operator of the vehicle to protect others from the dangers of their choice. > You can really rely on everyone driving a motor vehicle to obey practically every traffic law every time. This is satire, right? This is so hilariously wrong it's not worth elaborating on. You yourself even directly contradict this in your last paragraph. > And they know that driving is a privilege and that violations can cost them their license, which will cost them their job, their freedom and a lot of things. Driving is generally treated more as a right, especially in the US, where I infer you live. Look up the punishments for killing someone with a car vs not. DUI? No problem, just keep on trucking. > On the other hand we’ve got cyclists, pedestrians, scooters, wheelchairs: all sorts of other conveyances on the road, and they basically ignore every traffic law imaginable. Traffic laws only exist because of cars. Mostly due to the danger they cause to everyone. Ever seen pedestrian only areas with roads, lanes, traffic lights? You haven't because only cars need those. > Personally, I’m the slowest and smallest thing on the road, and I eagerly defer to everything else that’s bigger and faster than me. So you break the law on the regular yourself then, sigh. If you have the right of way in the situation, do not preemptively yield. By not acting the way you're expected to, all you do is cause confusion and frustration for everyone else. A basic rule of traffic is to keep things moving and the best way to do that is to follow what's expected of you.

goda90 2y ago

> You can really rely on everyone driving a motor vehicle to obey practically every traffic law every time. That is, they stop for red lights, they stay in lanes, make legal/safe turns; they generally stay near the speed limit and don’t egregiously violate it. And they know that driving is a privilege and that violations can cost them their license, which will cost them their job, their freedom and a lot of things. Where do you live that this is your observation? This is not what I observe in the United States. Speeding is rampant. Distracted driving is rampant. People roll through stop signs and run red lights enough that everyone should watch out for it. > It’s a college town, and so there’s lots of young adults and/or foreigners, and they don’t know the laws, and they don’t care, and they walk wherever they want, and they scoot wherever they want, and they bike whatever direction they care about. And traffic laws be damned. I'm curious what the traffic laws actually are for pedestrians and cyclists in your town. I imagine almost all of them are in regards to interactions with cars, since a pedestrian running into another pedestrian is rarely a life threatening scenario so having a law to enforce pedestrian only traffic isn't a big deal. >It often confuses motorists when I permit them to enter a driveway rather than walk in front of them. Many motorists are extremely over cautious about pedestrians, and it’s nearly always difficult to convince them that I’m yielding my right-of-way— on foot— and permitting them to do what they want. In many places the traffic law is to give pedestrians right-of-way over vehicles at otherwise uncontrolled junctions. Motorists are confused because you're asking them to break the traffic laws.

7952 2y ago

Cars and pedestrian/bikes are an apple to oranges comparison. Its like comparing how we regulate cars to private planes. They just have completely different potential to hurt other people. Placing such a heavy burden on pedestrians/cyclists is just disproportionate to the threat they pose. There is no reason to expect a level play field relative to cars because they are just so different. And to be clear people should be careful and look after their own safety. But that does not mean they have some moral obligation to help drivers limit the threat they pose. Nor is it reasonable to expect pedestrians to be perfect 100% of the time. Getting drunk, glancing at your phone, being distracted should not be a death sentance.

AStonesThrow 2y ago
> Motorists are confused because you're asking them to break the traffic laws. I am absolutely not asking anyone to break any law. https://m.xkcd.com/2932/ https://m.xkcd.com/2932/ After reading this comic and understanding its real-life implications, I always avoid signaling any motorist to take action now. I simply indicate hesitancy to them, or I just turn around and loiter on the corner, looking in the opposite direction and indicating with my entire body that I have no intention of walking into their path. It is always a pedestrian's prerogative to stop, to wait, to not move forward nor backwards, unless we're in the middle of the street or something, you know? I can even sit down on the curb, and take 5 minutes to breathe, if there's no bench available. Completely legal. So this happens at green-light intersections as well as driveways and other junctures. At a residential driveway, I'll carefully check for vehicles intending to pull in or out, before I start crossing it. Because I'm often walking down stroads that are 35mph+. I would rather hang back, take a rest from walking, and allow traffic to smoothly exit that stroad, than insist on my own legal right-of-way. So no, I'm not requesting or requiring any behavior at all from other motorists or road-users. I'm simply standing still and turning aside and failing to plow through a shared space, OK? Now I live in Metro Phoenix and Tempe is a college-town. So I see all kinds of traffic hijinx. So people may certainly break traffic laws, but motorists really don't do it much at all, in proportion to the heavy traffic that plagues all our streets here. Motorists seldom surprise or shock me by doing really crazy maneuvers. Yes, I've seen cars drive the wrong-way on a stroad for like, 1/4th block. Yes, I've seen cars make left turns that are technically illegal. But in general, they definitely stop for red lights (because the cops patrol them and so do the cameras take photos and mail them tickets!) and they definitely do not drive 100mph in a 35 or anything crazy, all things being equal. I frequently ride Veyo, taxis, Uber, and Lyft, and all those drivers are quite safe. I also ride public transit so much: those are the safest operators on the road, bar none. They are hired for their clean records and excellent prudence. I trust public transit with my life, whether I'm in the bus, or crossing the street. Out on those stroads I feel extremely safe as a pedestrian, crossing the street legally, or in a crosswalk, or just strolling down the sidewalk. If motorists routinely broke traffic laws, I wouldn't feel safe and I'd be expecting surprises! But generally motorists act completely sane, even if they're staring at their SMS! Now it is possible for a single pedestrian, a cyclist, or a scooter to really cause a big fuckin' accident. I contend that any surprise from a person on foot will mess up the flow of traffic. I have seen middle-school students throwing drinks at one another on the sidewalk, one of them runs into the road to avoid getting drenched, and they're right in front of an oncoming bus going 20-25mph. Holy crap. People have definitely walked right under the light rail and been literally dragged for yards and yards, before the operator could apply the brakes, and the first-responders could pry their dead corpses out. I personally leapt out in front of a Waymo going 35mph once, just to see if it would dodge me (it did but I was crazy). I have caused a significant amount of road-range and honking and really angry pedal-stompers by riding a manual bicycle and an electric scooter in the traffic lanes (35-40mph limits). The scooters can go max 17mph and it's 100% legal for me to take such a traffic lane, and I play it extremely safe, but still the motorists become enraged and they engage in risky behavior. If I weren't so safe I could cause a major pile-up with that scooter and harm myself in the process, as well. There are comprehensive laws on Tempe's books for people who operate bicycles and eScooters. I read some of them. If an eScooter is riding on the sidewalk, they can't go past 5mph and they need to yield for everyone (like pedestrians and wheelchairs). There were so many restrictions on sidewalk-riders, I decided that riding scooters and bicycles in the street is far more straightforward (can go up to 17mph rather than 5 plus frequent stops!) So your assertion that pedestrians can't hurt anyone is false. All a pedestrian needs to do is leverage a lot of momentum by surprising the operator thereof. And then all hell can break loose. Walking on the sidewalk, I routinely encounter illegal scooters, illegal powered cycles, really aggressive wheelchair users, and all sorts of idiot behavior. You simply can get away with murder, literally, on any sidewalk around here, because there's nearly no accountability for violations, compared to motorists on the roads. Last week there was a pack of 3 boys wearing helmets and BMX gear, riding their bicycles down the sidewalk (and up onto lawns and boulevard strips, commanding as much width as possible), and clearly intending to disrupt and annoy passengers on the bus who were boarding and disembarking. They were able to maintain the exact pace of the bus I rode w.r.t. all its designated stops, and they were really determined to be entitled little jerkoffs, sticking it to the poor man. Motorists can be held accountable for everything by means of traffic laws, driver licenses, vehicle registrations, and insurance policies. There is a huge amount of legal leverage over any driver on the road that simply never applies to peds or cyclists or riders of scooters or narcocorridos or coyotes around here. Therefore I feel 100% justified in being courteous and giving deference to everyone else. Defensive driving translates to "defensive walking" or "defensive scooting" for me, these days. I'm 53 years old, and I expect to see 54 with all my limbs intact.

Spooky23 2y ago

You make a good point about cyclists, some of whom are only surpassed in misery by swimmers. But the focus on cars is a risk calculus Probability*impact. If the bike guy hits you, you’ll fall and maybe get hurt. If a car hits you at 30, you’re dead or hospitalized. We rightly empathize threat to life over lower chance of relatively minor injury.

hansvm 2y ago

> You can really rely on everyone driving a motor vehicle to obey practically every traffic law every time. That is, they stop for red lights, they stay in lanes, make legal/safe turns; they generally stay near the speed limit and don’t egregiously violate it. And they know that driving is a privilege and that violations can cost them their license, which will cost them their job, their freedom and a lot of things. What utopia do you live in? There's a major wreck at least once each year a couple blocks away when too many people speed while blowing the stop sign at the same time. There's a motorcyclist routinely going 115mph+ through our 25mph neighborhood, and despite having gotten the police to give him stern warnings on three separate occasions he still hasn't stopped (has slowed down to ~80 most days). The median minimum speed at stop signs is 10mph, which might sound safe, but it's faster if you happen to be crossing the crosswalk at the same time because they have to make sure they can get in front of you -- usually misjudging and requiring me to jump away. And you're right that people usually stay in their lanes ... on straight segments ... on curves I have to be prepared to take evasive action as some pickup truck inevitably borrows half my lane while I'm beside them. Sure, cyclists usually brazenly flaunt traffic stops, speed limits, and the requirement to share the road, but it's not anywhere near as bad as what the cars are doing.

Mawr 2y ago

It is not right for you to choose to operate a deadly vehicle and then offload the dangers of that choice onto innocent bystanders. No pedestrian has forced you to drive a dangerous car around. Therefore, yes, it is the responsibility of the operator of the vehicle to protect others from the dangers of their choice. > You can really rely on everyone driving a motor vehicle to obey practically every traffic law every time. This is satire, right? This is so hilariously wrong it's not worth elaborating on. You yourself even directly contradict this in your last paragraph. > And they know that driving is a privilege and that violations can cost them their license, which will cost them their job, their freedom and a lot of things. Driving is generally treated more as a right, especially in the US, where I infer you live. Look up the punishments for killing someone with a car vs not. DUI? No problem, just keep on trucking. > On the other hand we’ve got cyclists, pedestrians, scooters, wheelchairs: all sorts of other conveyances on the road, and they basically ignore every traffic law imaginable. Traffic laws only exist because of cars. Mostly due to the danger they cause to everyone. Ever seen pedestrian only areas with roads, lanes, traffic lights? You haven't because only cars need those. > Personally, I’m the slowest and smallest thing on the road, and I eagerly defer to everything else that’s bigger and faster than me. So you break the law on the regular yourself then, sigh. If you have the right of way in the situation, do not preemptively yield. By not acting the way you're expected to, all you do is cause confusion and frustration for everyone else. A basic rule of traffic is to keep things moving and the best way to do that is to follow what's expected of you.