3 ms·

Leave your MAGA hats and your MAGA views at home, and few Europeans are gonna have a problem with you

bilekas 2y ago
I think leaving politics at home is always good advice when travelling, you're there to enjoy yourself, not spread political ideas. Unless you're entering a genuinely willing conversation that can be had maturely, definitely leave it at home.
jofla_net 2y ago
I was told I was 'forgiven' long before MAGA was a thing, near the bridge outside of Notre Dame Cathedral. Let me tell you, that made my day. Don't envy that waiter's career.
AlgorithmicTime 2y ago
[dead]
brandall10 2y ago
I've traveled quite a bit over the past few years (including a couple dozen cities in Europe), and I've found at events at many hostels/shared housing I've been at, it routinely comes up, esp. when alcohol is involved. With young Europeans, it seems to be a point of fascination with them that such stuff is happening in our country. And they will implicitly assume you're progressive because you're traveling in that part of the world.
kmeisthax 2y ago
The funny thing about this is that Europe is chock full of even loonier fascists than the MAGA hats. The far-right is, ironically, very globalist. Almost like a rainbow coalition of fascists. The problem is that they all think fucking over each other is going to make them #1. You can't have a world where "America First", "Germany First", "Islam First", "Japan First", "Korea First", "Korea First", "China First", and "India First" all[0] coexist. They're far too egotistical to be satisfied with a tie. Someone has to be second. We're seeing a lot of Europe and Canada rally around the current liberal establishment, because Trump started the global race war before every country was actually committed to it, and the fascists are realizing they might wind up on the losing end of it. But let's also remember that a year ago, the AfD was talking about deporting German citizens, and had even hoodwinked the liberal establishment into supporting shit like holding refugee claimants in Rwanda. Europe looked like it was about to fall to fascists that are smarter and more well-connected than the American equivalent. The divide, of course, is not "European" vs. "liberal American" vs. "MAGA hat". It's "those who show humanity to others" vs. "those who see others as a tool to be consumed". [0] If you're wondering, these correspond roughly to the MAGA wing of the GOP, the AfD, ISIS, all those idiots in Japan with sound trucks, Kim Jong-Un, , Xi Jinping, and Narendra Modi. For context, Xi Jinping is very, very ethnonationalist, despite running a nominally Communist party.
- BrandoElFollito 2y ago
  The Netherlands want to be second: https://youtu.be/ELD2AwFN9Nc?si=2t0QeR44tLIuf7uG https://youtu.be/ELD2AwFN9Nc?si=2t0QeR44tLIuf7uG
- tastyface 2y ago
  "You can't have a world where "America First", "Germany First", "Islam First", "Japan First", "Korea First", "Korea First", "China First", and "India First" all[0] coexist. They're far too egotistical to be satisfied with a tie. Someone has to be second." Sure you can - see the Axis during WWII. The trick is to gang up on the rest of the world and win, then deal with each other. (Or perhaps jealously guard your respective spheres of influence.)
- r00fus 2y ago
  > For context, Xi Jinping is very, very ethnonationalist, despite running a nominally Communist party. This is the first I'm hearing of this - do you have any context? Everything I've heard about China's policy (including having visited Beijing) is that everyone there is super open to foreigners and very respectful if you are likewise.
  - kmeisthax 2y ago
    The tourist experience does not accurately reflect the attitude of a country's policy towards foreigners or its racial minorities. Every country wants to have tourists entering the country, spending money inside of it, and leaving; it's one of those economic benefits that's so strong that even countries with huge overtourism problems find it difficult to manage the demand. First, let's talk about immigration. This tends to be a better barometer of a country's attitudes towards foreigners and integration. East Asia in general tends to be extremely restrictive, but China is harder to get into by orders of magnitude. For context: - Japan has 3.41 million foreign residents out of a population of 123.7 million (2.76%) - China (PRC) has 0.85 million foreign residents (excluding HK/Macau/TW) out of a population of 1,411.78 million (0.06%) This data is sourced from 2020 and 2024[0], which means it could have been lowered by COVID; so let's talk about permanent residents. Japan has about 900k permanent residents[1] compared to China's... 12k[2]. That's two orders of magnitude lower. Ok, but who's trying to get into China? I mean, Americans would never want to emigrate to China, right? Well, sure, I'll give you that, but China borders plenty of countries that would consider moving to the PRC to be a material benefit (e.g. North Korea and Myanmar). China has an immigration policy that would make Donald Trump blush. But so what? Second, let's talk about the one atrocity Mao wasn't willing to commit: Han chauvinism. China has a particular concern for territorial integrity. That's why they obsess over getting back control over Taiwan, an island full of people who want nothing to do with the mainland, and why they absorbed Hong Kong into themselves 20 years ahead of what they'd agreed to. The problem is that, especially on China's more ambiguously defined eastern borders, nobody there wants to actually be part of China. This terrifies Xi Jinping. And what does Xi do when he's terrified? He builds concentration camps. The eastern part of China, Xinjiang, is full of concentration camps where the Uighur population was rounded up, enslaved, indoctrinated, and sterilized; in the name of "anti-terrorism". This alone is enough for me to slap the "ethnofascist" label on Xi regardless of what political ideology he claims to subscribe to. [0] The Chinese data comes from the 2020 Chinese census, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Chinese_census https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Chinese_census and this article: https://www.intereconomics.eu/contents/year/2022/number/5/article/goodbye-china-what-do-fewer-foreigners-mean-for-multinationals-and-the-chinese-economy.html#footnote-008-backlink https://www.intereconomics.eu/contents/year/2022/number/5/ar... via Wikipedia For Japan's 2024 statistics, Wikipedia sourced them from: https://www.moj.go.jp/isa/publications/press/13_00047.html https://www.moj.go.jp/isa/publications/press/13_00047.html https://www.stat.go.jp/data/jinsui/new.html https://www.stat.go.jp/data/jinsui/new.html [1] https://www.jcer.or.jp/english/japans-immigration-policy-de-jure-and-de-facto https://www.jcer.or.jp/english/japans-immigration-policy-de-... Note that this excludes "special permanent residents", most of whom are victims of Imperial Japan's brutal occupation of Korea and Taiwan who got permanent residency in Japan as part of WWII peace treaties. [2] https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3234679/china-launch-revamped-smart-green-card-making-it-easier-foreigners-book-tickets-and-order-online https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3234679/chi...

I think leaving politics at home is always good advice when travelling, you're there to enjoy yourself, not spread political ideas. Unless you're entering a genuinely willing conversation that can be had maturely, definitely leave it at home.

jofla_net 2y ago

I was told I was 'forgiven' long before MAGA was a thing, near the bridge outside of Notre Dame Cathedral. Let me tell you, that made my day. Don't envy that waiter's career.

AlgorithmicTime 2y ago

[dead]

brandall10 2y ago

I've traveled quite a bit over the past few years (including a couple dozen cities in Europe), and I've found at events at many hostels/shared housing I've been at, it routinely comes up, esp. when alcohol is involved. With young Europeans, it seems to be a point of fascination with them that such stuff is happening in our country. And they will implicitly assume you're progressive because you're traveling in that part of the world.

kmeisthax 2y ago

The funny thing about this is that Europe is chock full of even loonier fascists than the MAGA hats. The far-right is, ironically, very globalist. Almost like a rainbow coalition of fascists. The problem is that they all think fucking over each other is going to make them #1. You can't have a world where "America First", "Germany First", "Islam First", "Japan First", "Korea First", "Korea First", "China First", and "India First" all[0] coexist. They're far too egotistical to be satisfied with a tie. Someone has to be second. We're seeing a lot of Europe and Canada rally around the current liberal establishment, because Trump started the global race war before every country was actually committed to it, and the fascists are realizing they might wind up on the losing end of it. But let's also remember that a year ago, the AfD was talking about deporting German citizens, and had even hoodwinked the liberal establishment into supporting shit like holding refugee claimants in Rwanda. Europe looked like it was about to fall to fascists that are smarter and more well-connected than the American equivalent. The divide, of course, is not "European" vs. "liberal American" vs. "MAGA hat". It's "those who show humanity to others" vs. "those who see others as a tool to be consumed". [0] If you're wondering, these correspond roughly to the MAGA wing of the GOP, the AfD, ISIS, all those idiots in Japan with sound trucks, Kim Jong-Un, , Xi Jinping, and Narendra Modi. For context, Xi Jinping is very, very ethnonationalist, despite running a nominally Communist party.

BrandoElFollito 2y ago
The Netherlands want to be second: https://youtu.be/ELD2AwFN9Nc?si=2t0QeR44tLIuf7uG https://youtu.be/ELD2AwFN9Nc?si=2t0QeR44tLIuf7uG
tastyface 2y ago
"You can't have a world where "America First", "Germany First", "Islam First", "Japan First", "Korea First", "Korea First", "China First", and "India First" all[0] coexist. They're far too egotistical to be satisfied with a tie. Someone has to be second." Sure you can - see the Axis during WWII. The trick is to gang up on the rest of the world and win, then deal with each other. (Or perhaps jealously guard your respective spheres of influence.)
r00fus 2y ago
> For context, Xi Jinping is very, very ethnonationalist, despite running a nominally Communist party. This is the first I'm hearing of this - do you have any context? Everything I've heard about China's policy (including having visited Beijing) is that everyone there is super open to foreigners and very respectful if you are likewise.
- kmeisthax 2y ago
  The tourist experience does not accurately reflect the attitude of a country's policy towards foreigners or its racial minorities. Every country wants to have tourists entering the country, spending money inside of it, and leaving; it's one of those economic benefits that's so strong that even countries with huge overtourism problems find it difficult to manage the demand. First, let's talk about immigration. This tends to be a better barometer of a country's attitudes towards foreigners and integration. East Asia in general tends to be extremely restrictive, but China is harder to get into by orders of magnitude. For context: - Japan has 3.41 million foreign residents out of a population of 123.7 million (2.76%) - China (PRC) has 0.85 million foreign residents (excluding HK/Macau/TW) out of a population of 1,411.78 million (0.06%) This data is sourced from 2020 and 2024[0], which means it could have been lowered by COVID; so let's talk about permanent residents. Japan has about 900k permanent residents[1] compared to China's... 12k[2]. That's two orders of magnitude lower. Ok, but who's trying to get into China? I mean, Americans would never want to emigrate to China, right? Well, sure, I'll give you that, but China borders plenty of countries that would consider moving to the PRC to be a material benefit (e.g. North Korea and Myanmar). China has an immigration policy that would make Donald Trump blush. But so what? Second, let's talk about the one atrocity Mao wasn't willing to commit: Han chauvinism. China has a particular concern for territorial integrity. That's why they obsess over getting back control over Taiwan, an island full of people who want nothing to do with the mainland, and why they absorbed Hong Kong into themselves 20 years ahead of what they'd agreed to. The problem is that, especially on China's more ambiguously defined eastern borders, nobody there wants to actually be part of China. This terrifies Xi Jinping. And what does Xi do when he's terrified? He builds concentration camps. The eastern part of China, Xinjiang, is full of concentration camps where the Uighur population was rounded up, enslaved, indoctrinated, and sterilized; in the name of "anti-terrorism". This alone is enough for me to slap the "ethnofascist" label on Xi regardless of what political ideology he claims to subscribe to. [0] The Chinese data comes from the 2020 Chinese census, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Chinese_census https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Chinese_census and this article: https://www.intereconomics.eu/contents/year/2022/number/5/article/goodbye-china-what-do-fewer-foreigners-mean-for-multinationals-and-the-chinese-economy.html#footnote-008-backlink https://www.intereconomics.eu/contents/year/2022/number/5/ar... via Wikipedia For Japan's 2024 statistics, Wikipedia sourced them from: https://www.moj.go.jp/isa/publications/press/13_00047.html https://www.moj.go.jp/isa/publications/press/13_00047.html https://www.stat.go.jp/data/jinsui/new.html https://www.stat.go.jp/data/jinsui/new.html [1] https://www.jcer.or.jp/english/japans-immigration-policy-de-jure-and-de-facto https://www.jcer.or.jp/english/japans-immigration-policy-de-... Note that this excludes "special permanent residents", most of whom are victims of Imperial Japan's brutal occupation of Korea and Taiwan who got permanent residency in Japan as part of WWII peace treaties. [2] https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3234679/china-launch-revamped-smart-green-card-making-it-easier-foreigners-book-tickets-and-order-online https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3234679/chi...