4 ms·

I hear about 'intern' posts where young people are expected to do a job for free, for extended periods, in return for some industry experience. Mostly I hear ab

I hear about 'intern' posts where young people are expected to do a job for free, for extended periods, in return for some industry experience. Mostly I hear about it in the US. I don't think it is a thing here in the UK (is it even legal?). But it sounds horrible. How common is unpaid intern work? Why should big, wealthy companies expect young people to work for free? Is this a deliberate form of gate keeping so that only people from wealthy families can get a foot in the door?

DanielHB 2y ago
Because low-experienced professionals are a net-negative to projects these days because of the increased complexity of modern development and training went away alongside company loyalty. Heck it is even hard to get companies to onboard experienced developers with no experience in the stack already used in the company. Most companies don't expect young people to work for free, they just don't hire them. What you are left is companies who expect young people to work for free, which obviously are not good companies.
- hermitcrab 2y ago
  >Because low-experienced professionals are a net-negative to projects these days because of the increased complexity of modern development It has always been the case that new hire are a net negative to start with. Even experienced people are probably a net negative for a few weeks. Inexperienced people are more of a long term investment.
pjc50 2y ago
The answer is that it's sometimes legal in the UK: https://www.youthemployment.org.uk/unpaid-internships-advice-for-employers/ https://www.youthemployment.org.uk/unpaid-internships-advice... However, previous governments set up ""welfare-to-work"" schemes, effectively a government subsidy to employers, where people were required to work for free: https://www.recruiter.co.uk/news/2012/03/no-end-controversy-over-%E2%80%98unpaid-work-experience%E2%80%99-unemployed https://www.recruiter.co.uk/news/2012/03/no-end-controversy-... (absurdly huge controversy, the government tried to legislate the outcome of this specific lawsuit through retroactive legislation, in violation of ECHR https://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2014/07/08/retrospective-legislation-that-interfered-with-judicial-ruling-violated-the-convention-and-the-rule-of-law/ https://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2014/07/08/retrospective-legis... )
whiteandnerdy 2y ago
They are not strictly speaking illegal in the UK, and were pretty common in the 2000s and early 2010s. The law requires employers to pay minimum wage to anyone who is a worker (i.e. is doing work for the company) - but "sitting in" doesn't have to be paid. Exceptions are also made for volunteering, and placements as part of a university course (these can be unpaid). Enforcement isn't consistently applied so some smaller outfits get away with it. The big FAANGs and other major companies pay.
creer 2y ago
Depends on the country. In many places, the law has gotten into this, and companies find it safer anyway to at least pay minimum wage. It won't be paid much. On the contrary in the US, I often see young people take jobs which pay around minimum wage and will not count as industry experience in their field - when they have enough qualifications to execute usefully on much higher paying jobs (even if the employer would still be underpaying them compared to the usual hires). My business would have used them - but couldn't find them easily. The job market is a mess.

DanielHB 2y ago

Because low-experienced professionals are a net-negative to projects these days because of the increased complexity of modern development and training went away alongside company loyalty. Heck it is even hard to get companies to onboard experienced developers with no experience in the stack already used in the company. Most companies don't expect young people to work for free, they just don't hire them. What you are left is companies who expect young people to work for free, which obviously are not good companies.

hermitcrab 2y ago
>Because low-experienced professionals are a net-negative to projects these days because of the increased complexity of modern development It has always been the case that new hire are a net negative to start with. Even experienced people are probably a net negative for a few weeks. Inexperienced people are more of a long term investment.

pjc50 2y ago

The answer is that it's sometimes legal in the UK: https://www.youthemployment.org.uk/unpaid-internships-advice-for-employers/ https://www.youthemployment.org.uk/unpaid-internships-advice... However, previous governments set up ""welfare-to-work"" schemes, effectively a government subsidy to employers, where people were required to work for free: https://www.recruiter.co.uk/news/2012/03/no-end-controversy-over-%E2%80%98unpaid-work-experience%E2%80%99-unemployed https://www.recruiter.co.uk/news/2012/03/no-end-controversy-... (absurdly huge controversy, the government tried to legislate the outcome of this specific lawsuit through retroactive legislation, in violation of ECHR https://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2014/07/08/retrospective-legislation-that-interfered-with-judicial-ruling-violated-the-convention-and-the-rule-of-law/ https://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2014/07/08/retrospective-legis... )

whiteandnerdy 2y ago

They are not strictly speaking illegal in the UK, and were pretty common in the 2000s and early 2010s. The law requires employers to pay minimum wage to anyone who is a worker (i.e. is doing work for the company) - but "sitting in" doesn't have to be paid. Exceptions are also made for volunteering, and placements as part of a university course (these can be unpaid). Enforcement isn't consistently applied so some smaller outfits get away with it. The big FAANGs and other major companies pay.

creer 2y ago

Depends on the country. In many places, the law has gotten into this, and companies find it safer anyway to at least pay minimum wage. It won't be paid much. On the contrary in the US, I often see young people take jobs which pay around minimum wage and will not count as industry experience in their field - when they have enough qualifications to execute usefully on much higher paying jobs (even if the employer would still be underpaying them compared to the usual hires). My business would have used them - but couldn't find them easily. The job market is a mess.