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Israel's direct enemies make it very explicit that they are antisemitic. Consider Hamas' charter, for example. Those enemies have long used European allies tha

Israel's direct enemies make it very explicit that they are antisemitic. Consider Hamas' charter, for example. Those enemies have long used European allies that descend from a long line of antisemitism, from both left and right wings. They often use "Israel" as a cover for their anti-Jewish beliefs. Several United Nations agencies seem to exist for the sole purpose of condemning Israel, while ignoring much worse issues elsewhere -- and that's not because Israel is uniquely bad. Israel's right wing government has taken advantage of this. So much anti-Israel sentiment is antisemitic that they can lump in all of the many, many valid criticisms. They believe, with some justification, that they will never receive fair treatment so they might as well do what they are accused of. I don't wish to "both sides" this. I'm just explaining that Jews have experienced so much bad faith argument that even Jews who are disgusted by the Israeli government expect outside criticism to come from a similar malfeasance. Maybe you specifically want to have a good faith discussion, but statistically the odds aren't great. So the arguments get shut down by the most expedient means, not the most correct ones.

School-Cotton 2y ago
I buy the claim that Hamas is an antisemitic organization. Their 1988 charter is quite explicitly antisemitic and although their more recent charter attempts to walk that back, it’s not clear how much sway the members who wrote it actually have within the organization or whether it was just written for Western consumption. I already said that antisemitism is one reason one might not support Israel, so of course I don’t dispute that some anti-Israel organizations are indeed antisemitic. But we’re not talking about Hamas; we’re talking about Colombia students. Is there any evidence that they openly supported Hamas? If not, why is it relevant?
- settrans 2y ago
  The Columbia protests were plainly and unabashedly pro-Hamas, e.g. the chant "يا حماس يا حبيب اضرب اضرب تل ابيب" (Oh Hamas, oh beloved, strike strike Tel Aviv), or the protestors exclaiming "We are Hamas", or any of the other explicit pro-Hamas statements that have been caught on camera. But I'm not sure what other pro-Palestinian protests have occurred since 2023 other than pro-Hamas protests. Have there been any explicitly pro-Palestinian protests that have advocated against Hamas, or for any other political entity?
- jfengel 2y ago
  Ah, I was addressing the first sentence in particular, about the conflation of anti-Israel sentiment and antisemitism. As for Columbia... no, there's zero reason to think they supported Hamas. There might well be antisemitism in the roots of this somewhere -- left-wing antisemitism is a real thing and didn't appear in response to Israel's treatment of Palestinians. But there is zero reason to think that the people being harassed are antisemitic. That is a right-wing belief that all Muslims are terrorists. Just to be clear about my perceptions: Israel does face serious terrorism from Muslim countries, and I think that this reaches American young people by being "washed" through anti-semitic (white) intellectuals. But attacking university students for their sincere and non-violent beliefs is horrific (even if I think that some of their beliefs are wrong).
KingMob 2y ago
As someone who's actually Jewish, has Israeli friends, and had kibbutzim relatives from back in the day, I agree that this is what the Israeli government and society tell themselves. But, it's a self-serving myth that enables them to overlook the outsized role of their policies in fomenting anti-Israel sentiment. The Holocaust created a ton of worldwide goodwill towards Jews that Israel has completely squandered in the decades since WW2 with their treatment of the Palestinians. By loudly proclaiming that anti-Israelism is the same as anti-semitism, Israel has made it hard for themselves to distinguish between the two, but easy to brush off legitimate criticism.

School-Cotton 2y ago

I buy the claim that Hamas is an antisemitic organization. Their 1988 charter is quite explicitly antisemitic and although their more recent charter attempts to walk that back, it’s not clear how much sway the members who wrote it actually have within the organization or whether it was just written for Western consumption. I already said that antisemitism is one reason one might not support Israel, so of course I don’t dispute that some anti-Israel organizations are indeed antisemitic. But we’re not talking about Hamas; we’re talking about Colombia students. Is there any evidence that they openly supported Hamas? If not, why is it relevant?

settrans 2y ago
The Columbia protests were plainly and unabashedly pro-Hamas, e.g. the chant "يا حماس يا حبيب اضرب اضرب تل ابيب" (Oh Hamas, oh beloved, strike strike Tel Aviv), or the protestors exclaiming "We are Hamas", or any of the other explicit pro-Hamas statements that have been caught on camera. But I'm not sure what other pro-Palestinian protests have occurred since 2023 other than pro-Hamas protests. Have there been any explicitly pro-Palestinian protests that have advocated against Hamas, or for any other political entity?
jfengel 2y ago
Ah, I was addressing the first sentence in particular, about the conflation of anti-Israel sentiment and antisemitism. As for Columbia... no, there's zero reason to think they supported Hamas. There might well be antisemitism in the roots of this somewhere -- left-wing antisemitism is a real thing and didn't appear in response to Israel's treatment of Palestinians. But there is zero reason to think that the people being harassed are antisemitic. That is a right-wing belief that all Muslims are terrorists. Just to be clear about my perceptions: Israel does face serious terrorism from Muslim countries, and I think that this reaches American young people by being "washed" through anti-semitic (white) intellectuals. But attacking university students for their sincere and non-violent beliefs is horrific (even if I think that some of their beliefs are wrong).

KingMob 2y ago

As someone who's actually Jewish, has Israeli friends, and had kibbutzim relatives from back in the day, I agree that this is what the Israeli government and society tell themselves. But, it's a self-serving myth that enables them to overlook the outsized role of their policies in fomenting anti-Israel sentiment. The Holocaust created a ton of worldwide goodwill towards Jews that Israel has completely squandered in the decades since WW2 with their treatment of the Palestinians. By loudly proclaiming that anti-Israelism is the same as anti-semitism, Israel has made it hard for themselves to distinguish between the two, but easy to brush off legitimate criticism.