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Ok, so what do you propose to do instead as AI gradually eats the world? A stated goal of most companies in that space is essentially to make human work redunda

Ok, so what do you propose to do instead as AI gradually eats the world? A stated goal of most companies in that space is essentially to make human work redundant, so shall we just kill off all the ones who aren't needed anymore?

jay_kyburz 2y ago
Not the grandparent, but I've been waiting for somebody to ask! The gov should guarantee a minimum wage job for everybody. You get out of bed, do something useful, you get a pay check. You might even learn a trade or develop skills. Don't like your boss, or the work not right for you, there can be plenty of other jobs for you to move into. What are all these jobs? I'm glad you asked! We need to plant billions of trees to soak up CO2, then tend the forests. We could use a few massive desalination projects. We can convert the world to green energy. We can care for our elderly better. We could use a lot more teachers. (How does 10 kids per teacher sound!). Of course would could have more homes and nicer cities. (How good would it be for the gov to pay you to build your own house!) There is a very long list of cool stuff we could do if you don't need rich people to invest in it first!
- em-bee 2y ago
  this! there is so much potential that we could develop if we trained people to work in meaningful jobs and if we actually funded these jobs. everywhere we hear complaints about how there are not enough teachers. never mind getting a teacher per 10 kids. some countries don't have enough teachers to get one per 30 kids. but there is no limit here. same goes for healthcare. nurses and doctors are hopelessly overworked. we could easily do with having 3x as many people work in those areas. even in science and research. we have a replication crisis because research is given the wrong incentives. how about awarding more reputation who replicate and verify existing research and without reputation for anything that can't be replicated. there is absolutely no reason for anyone to be out of work. there is enough good work to do. GP: Paying someone who provides no return on investment is simply a bad investment this thinking is the big mistake. the return of investment in letting people work on meaningful things is massive. here is the kicker though. the examples we gave so far don't even need UBI. we could just fund education and those jobs. however there is still a large benefit to UBI. it gives people more flexibility. it allows them to work less hours and spend their time on other things that can't easily be paid like caring for the environment in a more active way. keep your neighborhood clean. care for animals. help neighbors. socialize. spend more time with your children. these are all beneficial for our society. it is absolutely false that there is no return of such an investment. I've been waiting for somebody to ask i have been making this argument many times over the years. here on HN and elsewhere. the key is education. UBI is a great idea. but only with better and more education can the world really benefit from it.
djha-skin 2y ago
Who owns the AI, demanding payment for its use? Who owns the GPUs that the AI runs on? Who sold those people the silicon? Who owns the real estate upon which the GPUs run? All those people will demand payment for services rendered or goods delivered. My personal favorite: Who fixes the AI when it breaks? The lawn mower replaced human work, but it needs _just enough_ direction that it's still worth money for humans to run them, auto-run lawn mowers notwithstanding. AI will make people faster, but humans will only do work for other humans that do their share by giving value back. I don't believe we will ever live in a world where people won't want people working for them, or doing something for them.
rtp4me 2y ago
How about get educated/trained in something AI can't eat? Become a HVAC technician, Nurse/Doctor, lawn care maintenance owner, teacher, industrial shop owner, etc. There are plenty of fields that don't require AI to compete. They just require effort on your part to become educated and participate.
- mchusma 2y ago
  I think you are overestimating some of these fields resistance to automation. I'm actively working on automating HVAC and Lawn care. It's gonna take at least 3 years to see AI impact there, maybe its 20...but the road to automation is somewhat clear and progress is happening.
  - rtp4me 2y ago
    Interesting. How will (physically) AI install a new HVAC system? There must be some form of physical presence to get the job done. And, the current set of installers have a difficult time as it is (running duct work, low/high PSI lines, etc). Again, how will (physically) AI take over lawn maintenance? Do you expect a fleet of self-driving lawn-mowers to take to the streets? How will they get to your place? Who will be managing them? So many questions. Personally, I think the AI hype is way overblown. Sure, AI can help give better data for these areas, but I highly doubt AI will take over. I think AI can help smart people get even smarter (better ways to mow, more efficient ways to run HVAC lines, etc), but at the end of the day, you still need physical presence for many/most jobs.

jay_kyburz 2y ago

Not the grandparent, but I've been waiting for somebody to ask! The gov should guarantee a minimum wage job for everybody. You get out of bed, do something useful, you get a pay check. You might even learn a trade or develop skills. Don't like your boss, or the work not right for you, there can be plenty of other jobs for you to move into. What are all these jobs? I'm glad you asked! We need to plant billions of trees to soak up CO2, then tend the forests. We could use a few massive desalination projects. We can convert the world to green energy. We can care for our elderly better. We could use a lot more teachers. (How does 10 kids per teacher sound!). Of course would could have more homes and nicer cities. (How good would it be for the gov to pay you to build your own house!) There is a very long list of cool stuff we could do if you don't need rich people to invest in it first!

em-bee 2y ago
this! there is so much potential that we could develop if we trained people to work in meaningful jobs and if we actually funded these jobs. everywhere we hear complaints about how there are not enough teachers. never mind getting a teacher per 10 kids. some countries don't have enough teachers to get one per 30 kids. but there is no limit here. same goes for healthcare. nurses and doctors are hopelessly overworked. we could easily do with having 3x as many people work in those areas. even in science and research. we have a replication crisis because research is given the wrong incentives. how about awarding more reputation who replicate and verify existing research and without reputation for anything that can't be replicated. there is absolutely no reason for anyone to be out of work. there is enough good work to do. GP: Paying someone who provides no return on investment is simply a bad investment this thinking is the big mistake. the return of investment in letting people work on meaningful things is massive. here is the kicker though. the examples we gave so far don't even need UBI. we could just fund education and those jobs. however there is still a large benefit to UBI. it gives people more flexibility. it allows them to work less hours and spend their time on other things that can't easily be paid like caring for the environment in a more active way. keep your neighborhood clean. care for animals. help neighbors. socialize. spend more time with your children. these are all beneficial for our society. it is absolutely false that there is no return of such an investment. I've been waiting for somebody to ask i have been making this argument many times over the years. here on HN and elsewhere. the key is education. UBI is a great idea. but only with better and more education can the world really benefit from it.

djha-skin 2y ago

Who owns the AI, demanding payment for its use? Who owns the GPUs that the AI runs on? Who sold those people the silicon? Who owns the real estate upon which the GPUs run? All those people will demand payment for services rendered or goods delivered. My personal favorite: Who fixes the AI when it breaks? The lawn mower replaced human work, but it needs _just enough_ direction that it's still worth money for humans to run them, auto-run lawn mowers notwithstanding. AI will make people faster, but humans will only do work for other humans that do their share by giving value back. I don't believe we will ever live in a world where people won't want people working for them, or doing something for them.

rtp4me 2y ago

How about get educated/trained in something AI can't eat? Become a HVAC technician, Nurse/Doctor, lawn care maintenance owner, teacher, industrial shop owner, etc. There are plenty of fields that don't require AI to compete. They just require effort on your part to become educated and participate.

mchusma 2y ago
I think you are overestimating some of these fields resistance to automation. I'm actively working on automating HVAC and Lawn care. It's gonna take at least 3 years to see AI impact there, maybe its 20...but the road to automation is somewhat clear and progress is happening.
- rtp4me 2y ago
  Interesting. How will (physically) AI install a new HVAC system? There must be some form of physical presence to get the job done. And, the current set of installers have a difficult time as it is (running duct work, low/high PSI lines, etc). Again, how will (physically) AI take over lawn maintenance? Do you expect a fleet of self-driving lawn-mowers to take to the streets? How will they get to your place? Who will be managing them? So many questions. Personally, I think the AI hype is way overblown. Sure, AI can help give better data for these areas, but I highly doubt AI will take over. I think AI can help smart people get even smarter (better ways to mow, more efficient ways to run HVAC lines, etc), but at the end of the day, you still need physical presence for many/most jobs.