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That's just not how a society should work. Children should get a fair chance at life no matter how ignorant or negligent their parents are. Fluoridated water ke

That's just not how a society should work. Children should get a fair chance at life no matter how ignorant or negligent their parents are. Fluoridated water keeps teeth in mouths and students behind desks instead of missing school.

amluto 2y ago
This is also true for measles and chickenpox, both of which have quite unpleasant or even lethal medium-to-long-term consequences in some fraction of people who appear to have recovered.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Children should get a fair chance at life no matter how ignorant or negligent their parents are I agree in principle. But this just isn’t the country we live in. Smart states and communities can still think this through logically. But it may be for the best to let the antivax rural areas do their own thing and stick to themselves.
- themaninthedark 2y ago
  >antivax rural areas I would be careful with what size brush you are painting. >There are, of course, the familiar anti-vaxxers, who spoke up as early as February with concerns about a mandatory vaccine. There are also new groups. One is connected to far-right extremism and conspiracy theories (about the virus and otherwise). The other, termed “vaccine-hesitant,” is more surprising. It includes members of the opposite demographic — highly educated, liberal, not libertarian >While a majority of those unwilling to get a vaccine are Republicans, 42% of Democrats agree with them https://harvardpolitics.com/the-new-anti-vax/ https://harvardpolitics.com/the-new-anti-vax/
  - roguecoder 2y ago
    The anti-vaxx movement was really strong among ex-hippies when I was growing up. It's all the same people who believe in homeopathy and chiropractors. Part of the problem is presenting it as a choice makes people think it is legitimate to choose "no". I believe the consequence of not vaccinating should be social exclusion until you catch up: anything else is stochastically depraved heart murder.
    - DrillShopper 2y ago
      > I believe the consequence of not vaccinating should be social exclusion until you catch up I think it should be even stronger than that: no public services or public spaces for you. No driver's license, no public school, no library card, nothing, unless you can demonstrate a medical reason why you cannot receive a specific vaccine, and then you get an exception for only that one. If you want to live in your own world where you're disconnected from society then that's fine, you can do that, but it doesn't and shouldn't come consequence free given the damage you can do to others.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    The vaccine hesitant, to my knowledge, still gave their kids the MMR. They have just been sceptical of newer vaccines, e.g. for Covid or the flue. That’s probably a long-term problem. But it isn’t creating pockets of measles- and polio-afflicted kids.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  The problem is that there is no clear demarcation of the transition from parental control to state control. Even subjects like corporeal punishment and surgical modification are murky at best. Dental hygiene seems incredibly far down the list.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Dental hygiene seems incredibly far down the list Yup. It’s also something that can be mostly fixed later in life. So turning it into a hill to die on seems strategically unwise.
    - jeffbee 2y ago
      You can't fix the fact that poor dental health is associated with poor school attendance and lower academic achievement, later in life.
Empact 2y ago
You’re begging the question. If fluoridation decreases IQ through developmental neurotoxicity, is the lost cognitive capacity in the general population justified by the protection of children with irresponsible parents (who do not enforce eg the brushing of teeth) from the consequences of caries? This is a real moral problem we ought to contend with. I believe society suffers from lower IQs, and that targeted interventions against childhood caries can be applied effectively without dosing the whole population. Why don’t schools teach toothbrushing? Why not have the school nurse check children’s teeth, or have a dentist come to school periodically?
- gs17 2y ago
  > Why don’t schools teach toothbrushing? And/or have the school nurse check children’s teeth? Some schools used to have a fluoride rinse students would be forced to do. It looks like it still happens in some rural places.
  - creaturemachine 2y ago
    Oh the dreaded swish. I grew up in such a place.
  - themaninthedark 2y ago
    I had the swish at school, it was opt-in, not forced IIRC. Edit add: I wonder if the swish is better overall as the fluid is spit out after rather than continuous ingestion?
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      I had fluoride treatment at the dentist instead city application. It was pleasant tasting and took minutes. You don't swallow it so is local only. Anecdotal, but I am 40 and have never had a cavity. rarely floss and brush <2 times per day.
    - roguecoder 2y ago
      It is less effective because it is spit out rather than ingested: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Shou-Hua-Li/publication/19680021_Evaluation_of_the_comparative_effectiveness_of_fluoride_mouthrinsing_fluoride_tablets_and_both_procedures_in_combination_interim_findings_after_two_years/links/53f50dde0cf2888a74916c86/Evaluation-of-the-comparative-effectiveness-of-fluoride-mouthrinsing-fluoride-tablets-and-both-procedures-in-combination-interim-findings-after-two-years.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Shou-Hua-Li/publication... The most effective treatment was combining fluoride mouth wash and fluoride tablets.
dughnut 2y ago
[flagged]

amluto 2y ago

This is also true for measles and chickenpox, both of which have quite unpleasant or even lethal medium-to-long-term consequences in some fraction of people who appear to have recovered.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> Children should get a fair chance at life no matter how ignorant or negligent their parents are I agree in principle. But this just isn’t the country we live in. Smart states and communities can still think this through logically. But it may be for the best to let the antivax rural areas do their own thing and stick to themselves.

themaninthedark 2y ago
>antivax rural areas I would be careful with what size brush you are painting. >There are, of course, the familiar anti-vaxxers, who spoke up as early as February with concerns about a mandatory vaccine. There are also new groups. One is connected to far-right extremism and conspiracy theories (about the virus and otherwise). The other, termed “vaccine-hesitant,” is more surprising. It includes members of the opposite demographic — highly educated, liberal, not libertarian >While a majority of those unwilling to get a vaccine are Republicans, 42% of Democrats agree with them https://harvardpolitics.com/the-new-anti-vax/ https://harvardpolitics.com/the-new-anti-vax/
- roguecoder 2y ago
  The anti-vaxx movement was really strong among ex-hippies when I was growing up. It's all the same people who believe in homeopathy and chiropractors. Part of the problem is presenting it as a choice makes people think it is legitimate to choose "no". I believe the consequence of not vaccinating should be social exclusion until you catch up: anything else is stochastically depraved heart murder.
  - DrillShopper 2y ago
    > I believe the consequence of not vaccinating should be social exclusion until you catch up I think it should be even stronger than that: no public services or public spaces for you. No driver's license, no public school, no library card, nothing, unless you can demonstrate a medical reason why you cannot receive a specific vaccine, and then you get an exception for only that one. If you want to live in your own world where you're disconnected from society then that's fine, you can do that, but it doesn't and shouldn't come consequence free given the damage you can do to others.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  The vaccine hesitant, to my knowledge, still gave their kids the MMR. They have just been sceptical of newer vaccines, e.g. for Covid or the flue. That’s probably a long-term problem. But it isn’t creating pockets of measles- and polio-afflicted kids.
s1artibartfast 2y ago
The problem is that there is no clear demarcation of the transition from parental control to state control. Even subjects like corporeal punishment and surgical modification are murky at best. Dental hygiene seems incredibly far down the list.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Dental hygiene seems incredibly far down the list Yup. It’s also something that can be mostly fixed later in life. So turning it into a hill to die on seems strategically unwise.
  - jeffbee 2y ago
    You can't fix the fact that poor dental health is associated with poor school attendance and lower academic achievement, later in life.

Empact 2y ago

You’re begging the question. If fluoridation decreases IQ through developmental neurotoxicity, is the lost cognitive capacity in the general population justified by the protection of children with irresponsible parents (who do not enforce eg the brushing of teeth) from the consequences of caries? This is a real moral problem we ought to contend with. I believe society suffers from lower IQs, and that targeted interventions against childhood caries can be applied effectively without dosing the whole population. Why don’t schools teach toothbrushing? Why not have the school nurse check children’s teeth, or have a dentist come to school periodically?

gs17 2y ago
> Why don’t schools teach toothbrushing? And/or have the school nurse check children’s teeth? Some schools used to have a fluoride rinse students would be forced to do. It looks like it still happens in some rural places.
- creaturemachine 2y ago
  Oh the dreaded swish. I grew up in such a place.
- themaninthedark 2y ago
  I had the swish at school, it was opt-in, not forced IIRC. Edit add: I wonder if the swish is better overall as the fluid is spit out after rather than continuous ingestion?
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    I had fluoride treatment at the dentist instead city application. It was pleasant tasting and took minutes. You don't swallow it so is local only. Anecdotal, but I am 40 and have never had a cavity. rarely floss and brush <2 times per day.
  - roguecoder 2y ago
    It is less effective because it is spit out rather than ingested: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Shou-Hua-Li/publication/19680021_Evaluation_of_the_comparative_effectiveness_of_fluoride_mouthrinsing_fluoride_tablets_and_both_procedures_in_combination_interim_findings_after_two_years/links/53f50dde0cf2888a74916c86/Evaluation-of-the-comparative-effectiveness-of-fluoride-mouthrinsing-fluoride-tablets-and-both-procedures-in-combination-interim-findings-after-two-years.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Shou-Hua-Li/publication... The most effective treatment was combining fluoride mouth wash and fluoride tablets.

dughnut 2y ago

[flagged]