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>It’s not China’s fault There is an element in that the US protects Taiwan. When China was content to make stuff and not invade places things were fine but now

by tim333 2y ago

>It’s not China’s fault There is an element in that the US protects Taiwan. When China was content to make stuff and not invade places things were fine but now it's building up it's military and saying it will take back Taiwan things are more awkward. It's bad for the US in a war situation with China if all their stuff is imported from China.

properpopper 2y ago
> When China was content to make stuff and not invade places Can you tell me more about Chinese invasions? > saying it will take back Taiwan Should the world cancel the USA because it is saying something about annexing Canada\Greenland?
- tim333 2y ago
  https://edition.cnn.com/2025/03/25/china/china-landing-barges-cable-cutter-taiwan-intl-hnk/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2025/03/25/china/china-landing-barge...
- 7jjjjjjj 2y ago
  > Should the world cancel the USA because it is saying something about annexing Canada\Greenland? Of course, how is that even a question?
  - yatopifo 2y ago
    I think they wanted to hear that it’s ok to invade other countries. Despite China being very pragmatic in all matters, China’s view on Taiwan is highly irrational. They want to have it because… well, just because. At the same time they manage to mostly ignore the territories that have been stolen by the Russian Empire. From the practical standpoint they actually have a better chance to regain the Russian territories gradually (through negotiations). I mean, Taiwan can be invaded, but it will be a scorched earth type of invasion making it entirely pointless.
    - bitmasher9 2y ago
      Saying China wants Taiwan “just because” over simplifies the situation. During the Chinese Communist Revolution the previous government of China retreated to Taiwan. The official name of the Taiwanese government is “Republic of China”, demonstrating that their legitimacy stretches back to this time period. While Chinese settlers in Taiwan dates back further, China claimed the island in the 17th century. The island was under Japanese rule for about 50 years, before being returned to China in the post WW2 treaties. The history is deep, and Taiwanese independence is a relatively new thing.
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        I think it is fair to say conquest of Taiwan has always been an issue of national pride for the PRC. It isn't a national security threat. It is based on a manifest destiny ideology that the PRC is the only legitimate heir of Chinese culture and history, and sole rightful ruler of all people of Chinese descent.
        bitmasher9 2y ago
        I would say it’s a potential national security threat. The Taiwanese government does call itself The Republic of China. From a security standpoint it would be like if a group of US politicians and other elites took over Cuba and called themselves The Republic of The United States. Yeah, an island nation wouldn’t win a fight, but their intentions are in the title.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        That seems like a very modern and loose definition of "national security threat" which means anything not in the regime's interest. ROC is not going to conquer or invade PRC. The is ideological and presented by ROC merely existing.
        kelipso 2y ago
        It’s part of the first island chain, of course it’s a national security threat. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_island_chain https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_island_chain
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  >Should the world cancel the USA because it is saying something about annexing Canada\Greenland? Not the world, but If I were Canada\Denmark, I would think twice about if I rely on the US for defense and arms. That said Taiwan is a red herring. Im not sure the US policy has a coherent strategy. If there is one, it is that US economic and military hegemony is waning with global economic growth. Negative sum strategies are valid in war and power competition. If a global recession hurts the rest of the world less than US, that could be a strategic win.
lossolo 2y ago
> When China was content to make stuff and not invade places things were fine And "content to make stuff"? You mean back when they were underpaid workers doing low-complexity manufacturing and not actually competing with the U.S.? > but now it's building up it's military and saying it will take back Taiwan things are more awkward. Maybe it's building up its military because it keeps hearing things like "pivot to Asia" and "we need to prepare for war with China"—for about 8 years now. If I were China, and knowing how the U.S. has violated international law by invading other countries (like Iraq), I’d be ramping up my military even more. > not invade places Which country did they invade?
- tim333 2y ago
  Complex stuff is fine. Invasion - talk of Taiwan, troops into Hong Kong, bases in the sea territory of Vietnam, Philippines etc.
tenwz1 2y ago
Americans seem to be very sensitive about Taiwan, but if you understand the history of our country, you will find that Taiwan has always been a part of China. Even Taiwanese people today will not deny this. In fact, the Taiwan issue was originally caused by the obstruction of the Americans, which led to our country's failure to unify. Our people have always been resentful about this matter.
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  And if mainland China would simply end its 75-year rebellion against the legitimate government of China, which resides in Taiwan, there would be no problem.
- tim333 2y ago
  Well that's one take on it. From the western perspective Taiwan was part of China and when the communists overthrew the government in the mainland with military force it retreated to Taiwan. Now Taiwan is effectively an independent democracy and the commies want to overthrow its government militarily against the wishes of the locals as usual. The world's democratic governments generally oppose the overthrow of democratic governments by dictators who want to grab some place by killing the locals. A civilized compromise might be a union like the EU with both governments continuing on an equal basis.
  - krapp 2y ago
    >The world's democratic governments generally oppose the overthrow of democratic governments by dictators who want to grab some place by killing the locals. Not only do Western governments not actually oppose this, they have orchestrated the overthrow of democratic governments and installed dictatorships numerous times when it suited their interests. The actual Western perspective is not to give a damn who runs Taiwan or how many locals they kill as long as we can do favorable business with them. Although the Red Menace rhetoric does play well at home.
    - tim333 2y ago
      Well some of them. I'm western and have friends in Taiwan and want the place to do ok and am not worried about the business side.

by tim333 2y ago

properpopper 2y ago

> When China was content to make stuff and not invade places Can you tell me more about Chinese invasions? > saying it will take back Taiwan Should the world cancel the USA because it is saying something about annexing Canada\Greenland?

tim333 2y ago
https://edition.cnn.com/2025/03/25/china/china-landing-barges-cable-cutter-taiwan-intl-hnk/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2025/03/25/china/china-landing-barge...
7jjjjjjj 2y ago
> Should the world cancel the USA because it is saying something about annexing Canada\Greenland? Of course, how is that even a question?
- yatopifo 2y ago
  I think they wanted to hear that it’s ok to invade other countries. Despite China being very pragmatic in all matters, China’s view on Taiwan is highly irrational. They want to have it because… well, just because. At the same time they manage to mostly ignore the territories that have been stolen by the Russian Empire. From the practical standpoint they actually have a better chance to regain the Russian territories gradually (through negotiations). I mean, Taiwan can be invaded, but it will be a scorched earth type of invasion making it entirely pointless.
  - bitmasher9 2y ago
    Saying China wants Taiwan “just because” over simplifies the situation. During the Chinese Communist Revolution the previous government of China retreated to Taiwan. The official name of the Taiwanese government is “Republic of China”, demonstrating that their legitimacy stretches back to this time period. While Chinese settlers in Taiwan dates back further, China claimed the island in the 17th century. The island was under Japanese rule for about 50 years, before being returned to China in the post WW2 treaties. The history is deep, and Taiwanese independence is a relatively new thing.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      I think it is fair to say conquest of Taiwan has always been an issue of national pride for the PRC. It isn't a national security threat. It is based on a manifest destiny ideology that the PRC is the only legitimate heir of Chinese culture and history, and sole rightful ruler of all people of Chinese descent.
      - bitmasher9 2y ago
        I would say it’s a potential national security threat. The Taiwanese government does call itself The Republic of China. From a security standpoint it would be like if a group of US politicians and other elites took over Cuba and called themselves The Republic of The United States. Yeah, an island nation wouldn’t win a fight, but their intentions are in the title.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        That seems like a very modern and loose definition of "national security threat" which means anything not in the regime's interest. ROC is not going to conquer or invade PRC. The is ideological and presented by ROC merely existing.
      - kelipso 2y ago
        It’s part of the first island chain, of course it’s a national security threat. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_island_chain https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_island_chain
s1artibartfast 2y ago
>Should the world cancel the USA because it is saying something about annexing Canada\Greenland? Not the world, but If I were Canada\Denmark, I would think twice about if I rely on the US for defense and arms. That said Taiwan is a red herring. Im not sure the US policy has a coherent strategy. If there is one, it is that US economic and military hegemony is waning with global economic growth. Negative sum strategies are valid in war and power competition. If a global recession hurts the rest of the world less than US, that could be a strategic win.

lossolo 2y ago

> When China was content to make stuff and not invade places things were fine And "content to make stuff"? You mean back when they were underpaid workers doing low-complexity manufacturing and not actually competing with the U.S.? > but now it's building up it's military and saying it will take back Taiwan things are more awkward. Maybe it's building up its military because it keeps hearing things like "pivot to Asia" and "we need to prepare for war with China"—for about 8 years now. If I were China, and knowing how the U.S. has violated international law by invading other countries (like Iraq), I’d be ramping up my military even more. > not invade places Which country did they invade?

tim333 2y ago
Complex stuff is fine. Invasion - talk of Taiwan, troops into Hong Kong, bases in the sea territory of Vietnam, Philippines etc.

tenwz1 2y ago

Americans seem to be very sensitive about Taiwan, but if you understand the history of our country, you will find that Taiwan has always been a part of China. Even Taiwanese people today will not deny this. In fact, the Taiwan issue was originally caused by the obstruction of the Americans, which led to our country's failure to unify. Our people have always been resentful about this matter.

AnimalMuppet 2y ago
And if mainland China would simply end its 75-year rebellion against the legitimate government of China, which resides in Taiwan, there would be no problem.
tim333 2y ago
Well that's one take on it. From the western perspective Taiwan was part of China and when the communists overthrew the government in the mainland with military force it retreated to Taiwan. Now Taiwan is effectively an independent democracy and the commies want to overthrow its government militarily against the wishes of the locals as usual. The world's democratic governments generally oppose the overthrow of democratic governments by dictators who want to grab some place by killing the locals. A civilized compromise might be a union like the EU with both governments continuing on an equal basis.
- krapp 2y ago
  >The world's democratic governments generally oppose the overthrow of democratic governments by dictators who want to grab some place by killing the locals. Not only do Western governments not actually oppose this, they have orchestrated the overthrow of democratic governments and installed dictatorships numerous times when it suited their interests. The actual Western perspective is not to give a damn who runs Taiwan or how many locals they kill as long as we can do favorable business with them. Although the Red Menace rhetoric does play well at home.
  - tim333 2y ago
    Well some of them. I'm western and have friends in Taiwan and want the place to do ok and am not worried about the business side.