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I've always struggled with this concept. I ask people to define 'free will' when they start to talk about it. As there only seems to be either causally determin

by Festro 1y ago

I've always struggled with this concept. I ask people to define 'free will' when they start to talk about it. As there only seems to be either causally determined processes or indetermined (random) ones. There's no inbetween where something like a consciousness can make a 'free' choice between options. That choice is always a product of weighted factors like memories, mood, stray particles blasting through my brain, etc. My will is my ability to weigh up options but it's not 'free'. The one angle that's started to pop up more and more in research that looks promising is that of the brain's possible use of micro-tubules that allow for cognitive interaction with a quantum state. i.e. possible decision-making within an indeterminate plane. Here's a study on the concepts: https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/integrative-neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnint.2012.00093/full https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/integrative-neuroscienc... Or that just means our brains found an evolutionary edge by shifting decision-making to a dice roll when being locked into totally causal decision-making was becoming a disadvantage. i.e. the ape that could innovate because it did random things came out on top more than the ape that was totally derivative in its behaviours.

card_zero 1y ago
> My will is my ability to weigh up options but it's not 'free'. In what way? What do you want when you want it to be free? Maybe the problem is just that "deterministic" and "random" both sound like "you don't get options". But you do get options. Then, subject to probabilities, you choose between them, like a process. Your will has to be a process: what else could it be?
- Festro 1y ago
  I think the nuance here is that I mean there is no true free action of choosing. The choice is always controlled by something outside of my control, either a random chance or determined by my memories/experiences/biases etc. I'm saying that 'free' is essentially meaningless, it can't be defined in this context. If my will is a process whereby I come to a decision between options, but my decision is constrained by random or determined factors, there's no room for any personal freedom, I, my will, is controlled completely by those factors and is not free.
  - card_zero 1y ago
    If "my control" is another way to say "my will", the issue becomes: My control is controlled by something outside of my control Which is technically true, but looks silly. It implies an insatiable desire for power, because no amount of control is satisfying so long as there remains something external. To rephrase again, There is something outside of my control Or even more simply, There is something So interacting with anything (even in a dream!) brings up this issue due to the thing being an obstacle. The complaint is really "things exist". Oh no!

by Festro 1y ago

card_zero 1y ago

> My will is my ability to weigh up options but it's not 'free'. In what way? What do you want when you want it to be free? Maybe the problem is just that "deterministic" and "random" both sound like "you don't get options". But you do get options. Then, subject to probabilities, you choose between them, like a process. Your will has to be a process: what else could it be?

Festro 1y ago
I think the nuance here is that I mean there is no true free action of choosing. The choice is always controlled by something outside of my control, either a random chance or determined by my memories/experiences/biases etc. I'm saying that 'free' is essentially meaningless, it can't be defined in this context. If my will is a process whereby I come to a decision between options, but my decision is constrained by random or determined factors, there's no room for any personal freedom, I, my will, is controlled completely by those factors and is not free.
- card_zero 1y ago
  If "my control" is another way to say "my will", the issue becomes: My control is controlled by something outside of my control Which is technically true, but looks silly. It implies an insatiable desire for power, because no amount of control is satisfying so long as there remains something external. To rephrase again, There is something outside of my control Or even more simply, There is something So interacting with anything (even in a dream!) brings up this issue due to the thing being an obstacle. The complaint is really "things exist". Oh no!