4 ms·

The slight difference is the difference between throwing gays off of tall buildings and complaining about them getting married.

by boxed 2y ago

DoingIsLearning 2y ago
If rule of law and due process are arbitrarily ignored then the only real difference is time. Given enough time all can degenerate.
- boxed 2y ago
  > If rule of law and due process are arbitrarily ignored then the only real difference is time. Due process isn't a part of any religion afaik. And "rule of law" in Christianity and Islam is "suffer not a witch to live" and stuff like that. Not good. > Given enough time all can degenerate. "Degenerate" is a strange word in this context. Islam started as an imperialist death cult. Any movement towards liberalism and sanity is not something I'd call "degenerate". Christianity is hard to pin down where it started because it started small and without power. As soon as it got real power it turned evil real fast.
  - cannonpr 2y ago
    I don’t mean to say Islam is perfect, very little is, but it does have a lot of due process and it hardly started as a death cult… I’d spend some time researching due process in shariah and try to remember that in many ways Islam was highly innovative for its era in combining a legal code with its religion in a very integral manner. Now later Islam in particular othoman Islam was indeed somewhat warped and coupled with an expansionist empire, kinda like Christianity, and is another game altogether.
  - defrost 2y ago
    Due process is selective in the US. Current deportations sans due process aside, have a look at recent history in Mississippi: ‘Lynchings in Mississippi never stopped’ (2021) - https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/08/08/modern-day-mississippi-lynchings/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/08/08/modern-day-...
  - adrian_b 2y ago
    Despite how bad a few modern Islamist societies may be, it is very wrong to write sentences like "Islam started as an imperialist death cult", like they would be true and universally applicable. While after conversion to Islam the Arabs had a few centuries of great territorial expansion, when they have conquered not only their neighbors in Asia, but also the North of Africa and a part of the Iberian Peninsula, this was the standard behavior at that time for any population that was strong enough to be able to do this. It does not make the Arabs more "imperialist" than any other of their contemporaneous nations, e.g. when compared with Charlemagne. Moreover, for many centuries, until relatively recently, most conflicts in Islamic countries, such as the Turkish Empire, were more likely to be settled by judges according to the law and without making discrimination based on religion, nationality or wealth, than in the contemporaneous European countries, where the enforcement of the laws was frequently arbitrary and biased. The Europeans who have lived in countries occupied by Islamic Turks or Arabs have survived many centuries without losing their religion or traditions, in contrast with what happened with those that have been occupied by European empires, like the Russian Empire (or its Soviet descendant) or by the Austrian Empire (or its Austria-Hungary successor), where complete denationalization has frequently happened, due to intense discrimination. Anti-scientific interpretations of the Islamic religion rules have prevailed only many centuries after its appearance. Only then claims like "there is no need to read any books but the Holy Book, as it contains all truth that has to be known by humans" began to have supporters and enforcers. Moreover, taking into consideration the recent history, the US citizens are the last who should be mocking this kind of ideas, because many of them appear to think in the same way.
    - boxed 2y ago
      > Despite how bad a few modern Islamist societies may be, it is very wrong to write sentences like "Islam started as an imperialist death cult", like they would be true and universally applicable. I said "started" didn't I? I think the historical record is very clear. I meant during the time of the founder.
      - defrost 2y ago
        The greatest conquest during the time of the founder ... In December 629, after eight years of intermittent fighting with Meccan tribes, Muhammad gathered an army of 10,000 Muslim converts and marched on the city of Mecca. The conquest went largely uncontested, and Muhammad seized the city with minimal casualties. ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_Mecca https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_Mecca hardly sounds like the work of an "an imperialist death cult"
Terr_ 2y ago
I don't think you're aware of America's own shameful history of criminalizing homosexuality, how recently that was still happening, and how some of the people currently wielding Federal power want to go back to it.
rsynnott 2y ago
There are absolutely people on the US right who want to re-ban homosexuality; one of the bloody _supreme court justices_ has already signalled a willingness to re-examine Lawrence v Texas. Mississippi is one of the 14 states where homosexuality was only legalised by Lawrence v Texas in 2003.
- boxed 2y ago
  Making it illegal is very different from throwing people off tall buildings.
trhway 2y ago
>The slight difference is the difference between throwing gays off of tall buildings and complaining about them getting married. no necessarily gays. Different societies may treat as non-humans different groups of people. US has just threw several hundreds of people into a black hole of prison in El Salvador. Considering the prison conditions even in US and how even US was openly waterboarding people multiple times (180 times for one guy), one can imagine what may be happening to the people in that prison in El Salvador (read on the El Salvador death squads, and the current regime there basically continues the same behavior). A fall from a tall building may be a mercy in that context. And i guess we'd never know how many of those guys will come out, if ever, of there alive.
- tvc015 2y ago
  Perhaps safer there than being put into American prisons. American prisons are run by the inmates. Inmate rape, gang related violence and murder are normalized and tolerated by the states and corporations that operate the prison system. Salvadoran prisons seem tightly controlled and well staffed. Perhaps they have economies of scale though?
  - defrost 2y ago
    What to know about CECOT, El Salvador's mega-prison for [alleged] gang members CECOT prisoners do not receive visits and are never allowed outdoors. The prison does not offer workshops or educational programs to prepare them to return to society after their sentences. The prison's dining halls, break rooms, gym and board games are for guards. [ the human rights organization ] Cristosal reported last year that at least 261 people had died in El Salvador's prisons during the gang crackdown. The group and others have cited cases of abuse, torture and lack of medical attention. .. the government has shown CECOT prisoners in boxer shorts marching into common areas and made to sit nearly atop each other. Cells lack enough bunks for everyone. ~ https://www.npr.org/2025/03/17/g-s1-54206/el-salvador-mega-prison-cecot https://www.npr.org/2025/03/17/g-s1-54206/el-salvador-mega-p...
  - trhway 2y ago
    i can only conclude that you're either from US, Canada or Western Europe and somehow don't know, even in this age of global information, what a prison outside of the Western world is. And if you add that in case like El Salvador they intentionally make it "tough". There is a reason another "tough" guy - Duterte - has recently been delivered to ICC for the crimes against humanity. Because that is what "tough" means in those places.
firen777 2y ago
I appreciate your effort to reign in some reality here to show how privileged Americans are, but the word of the day is "trajectory" and it's aiming right at bottom right now.
DonHopkins 2y ago
Driving them to a remote rural area to rob, pistol-whip, torture, tie to a split-rail fence, and leaving them to die, so brutally that their face was covered in blood except for where the tears washed it away, happened in America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard And the people who would do that kind of thing again are absolutely THRILLED and EMPOWERED about the current administration's policies towards gay and trans people. And it's happening much more often now thanks to Trump's Stochastic Terrorism, aimed at his lunatic cult of MAGA followers who are every bit as fanatical and delusional and vengeful and armed to the teeth as any religious imperialist death cult. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_terrorism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_terrorism Beaten With Belts, Sticks: Transgender Man Tortured For Weeks Before Murder: https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/beaten-with-belts-sticks-transgender-man-tortured-for-weeks-before-murder-7722066 https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/beaten-with-belts-sticks-tra... >Nordquist, originally from Minnesota, travelled to New York in September to meet his online girlfriend and was staying at Patty's Lodge motel in Canandaigua. >New York authorities have charged five individuals for the brutal torture and killing of a 24-year-old transgender man, whose body was dumped in an empty field after going through weeks of abuse. >Sam Nordquist was subjected to relentless physical and psychological torture, according to court documents. He was punched, kicked, beaten with sticks, dog toys, ropes, canes, belts, and even assaulted with a table leg and a broomstick for weeks before succumbing to his injuries. >Nordquist, originally from Minnesota, travelled to New York in September to meet his online girlfriend and was staying at Patty's Lodge motel in Canandaigua, about 30 minutes from Rochester. His family raised concerns after losing contact with him. >Police launched a missing persons investigation on February 9, and on Thursday, they uncovered a "deeply disturbing pattern of abuse" at the motel, according to New York State Police Captain Kelly Swift. >"In my 20-year law enforcement career, this is one of the most horrific crimes I have ever investigated," Ms Swift said at a press conference.
- thatroof 2y ago
  The real story of Matthew Shepard is more complex than the false story that has been popularized: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/26/the-truth-behind-americas-most-famous-gay-hate-murder-matthew-shepard https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/26/the-truth-behi... Shepard was a meth dealer and he was in a sexual relationship with the man who killed him.

The slight difference is the difference between throwing gays off of tall buildings and complaining about them getting married.

by boxed 2y ago

The slight difference is the difference between throwing gays off of tall buildings and complaining about them getting married.

DoingIsLearning 2y ago

If rule of law and due process are arbitrarily ignored then the only real difference is time. Given enough time all can degenerate.

boxed 2y ago
> If rule of law and due process are arbitrarily ignored then the only real difference is time. Due process isn't a part of any religion afaik. And "rule of law" in Christianity and Islam is "suffer not a witch to live" and stuff like that. Not good. > Given enough time all can degenerate. "Degenerate" is a strange word in this context. Islam started as an imperialist death cult. Any movement towards liberalism and sanity is not something I'd call "degenerate". Christianity is hard to pin down where it started because it started small and without power. As soon as it got real power it turned evil real fast.
- cannonpr 2y ago
  I don’t mean to say Islam is perfect, very little is, but it does have a lot of due process and it hardly started as a death cult… I’d spend some time researching due process in shariah and try to remember that in many ways Islam was highly innovative for its era in combining a legal code with its religion in a very integral manner. Now later Islam in particular othoman Islam was indeed somewhat warped and coupled with an expansionist empire, kinda like Christianity, and is another game altogether.
- defrost 2y ago
  Due process is selective in the US. Current deportations sans due process aside, have a look at recent history in Mississippi: ‘Lynchings in Mississippi never stopped’ (2021) - https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/08/08/modern-day-mississippi-lynchings/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/08/08/modern-day-...
- adrian_b 2y ago
  Despite how bad a few modern Islamist societies may be, it is very wrong to write sentences like "Islam started as an imperialist death cult", like they would be true and universally applicable. While after conversion to Islam the Arabs had a few centuries of great territorial expansion, when they have conquered not only their neighbors in Asia, but also the North of Africa and a part of the Iberian Peninsula, this was the standard behavior at that time for any population that was strong enough to be able to do this. It does not make the Arabs more "imperialist" than any other of their contemporaneous nations, e.g. when compared with Charlemagne. Moreover, for many centuries, until relatively recently, most conflicts in Islamic countries, such as the Turkish Empire, were more likely to be settled by judges according to the law and without making discrimination based on religion, nationality or wealth, than in the contemporaneous European countries, where the enforcement of the laws was frequently arbitrary and biased. The Europeans who have lived in countries occupied by Islamic Turks or Arabs have survived many centuries without losing their religion or traditions, in contrast with what happened with those that have been occupied by European empires, like the Russian Empire (or its Soviet descendant) or by the Austrian Empire (or its Austria-Hungary successor), where complete denationalization has frequently happened, due to intense discrimination. Anti-scientific interpretations of the Islamic religion rules have prevailed only many centuries after its appearance. Only then claims like "there is no need to read any books but the Holy Book, as it contains all truth that has to be known by humans" began to have supporters and enforcers. Moreover, taking into consideration the recent history, the US citizens are the last who should be mocking this kind of ideas, because many of them appear to think in the same way.
  - boxed 2y ago
    > Despite how bad a few modern Islamist societies may be, it is very wrong to write sentences like "Islam started as an imperialist death cult", like they would be true and universally applicable. I said "started" didn't I? I think the historical record is very clear. I meant during the time of the founder.
    - defrost 2y ago
      The greatest conquest during the time of the founder ... In December 629, after eight years of intermittent fighting with Meccan tribes, Muhammad gathered an army of 10,000 Muslim converts and marched on the city of Mecca. The conquest went largely uncontested, and Muhammad seized the city with minimal casualties. ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_Mecca https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_Mecca hardly sounds like the work of an "an imperialist death cult"

Terr_ 2y ago

I don't think you're aware of America's own shameful history of criminalizing homosexuality, how recently that was still happening, and how some of the people currently wielding Federal power want to go back to it.

rsynnott 2y ago

There are absolutely people on the US right who want to re-ban homosexuality; one of the bloody _supreme court justices_ has already signalled a willingness to re-examine Lawrence v Texas. Mississippi is one of the 14 states where homosexuality was only legalised by Lawrence v Texas in 2003.

boxed 2y ago
Making it illegal is very different from throwing people off tall buildings.

trhway 2y ago

>The slight difference is the difference between throwing gays off of tall buildings and complaining about them getting married. no necessarily gays. Different societies may treat as non-humans different groups of people. US has just threw several hundreds of people into a black hole of prison in El Salvador. Considering the prison conditions even in US and how even US was openly waterboarding people multiple times (180 times for one guy), one can imagine what may be happening to the people in that prison in El Salvador (read on the El Salvador death squads, and the current regime there basically continues the same behavior). A fall from a tall building may be a mercy in that context. And i guess we'd never know how many of those guys will come out, if ever, of there alive.

tvc015 2y ago
Perhaps safer there than being put into American prisons. American prisons are run by the inmates. Inmate rape, gang related violence and murder are normalized and tolerated by the states and corporations that operate the prison system. Salvadoran prisons seem tightly controlled and well staffed. Perhaps they have economies of scale though?
- defrost 2y ago
  What to know about CECOT, El Salvador's mega-prison for [alleged] gang members CECOT prisoners do not receive visits and are never allowed outdoors. The prison does not offer workshops or educational programs to prepare them to return to society after their sentences. The prison's dining halls, break rooms, gym and board games are for guards. [ the human rights organization ] Cristosal reported last year that at least 261 people had died in El Salvador's prisons during the gang crackdown. The group and others have cited cases of abuse, torture and lack of medical attention. .. the government has shown CECOT prisoners in boxer shorts marching into common areas and made to sit nearly atop each other. Cells lack enough bunks for everyone. ~ https://www.npr.org/2025/03/17/g-s1-54206/el-salvador-mega-prison-cecot https://www.npr.org/2025/03/17/g-s1-54206/el-salvador-mega-p...
- trhway 2y ago
  i can only conclude that you're either from US, Canada or Western Europe and somehow don't know, even in this age of global information, what a prison outside of the Western world is. And if you add that in case like El Salvador they intentionally make it "tough". There is a reason another "tough" guy - Duterte - has recently been delivered to ICC for the crimes against humanity. Because that is what "tough" means in those places.

firen777 2y ago

I appreciate your effort to reign in some reality here to show how privileged Americans are, but the word of the day is "trajectory" and it's aiming right at bottom right now.

DonHopkins 2y ago

Driving them to a remote rural area to rob, pistol-whip, torture, tie to a split-rail fence, and leaving them to die, so brutally that their face was covered in blood except for where the tears washed it away, happened in America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard And the people who would do that kind of thing again are absolutely THRILLED and EMPOWERED about the current administration's policies towards gay and trans people. And it's happening much more often now thanks to Trump's Stochastic Terrorism, aimed at his lunatic cult of MAGA followers who are every bit as fanatical and delusional and vengeful and armed to the teeth as any religious imperialist death cult. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_terrorism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_terrorism Beaten With Belts, Sticks: Transgender Man Tortured For Weeks Before Murder: https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/beaten-with-belts-sticks-transgender-man-tortured-for-weeks-before-murder-7722066 https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/beaten-with-belts-sticks-tra... >Nordquist, originally from Minnesota, travelled to New York in September to meet his online girlfriend and was staying at Patty's Lodge motel in Canandaigua. >New York authorities have charged five individuals for the brutal torture and killing of a 24-year-old transgender man, whose body was dumped in an empty field after going through weeks of abuse. >Sam Nordquist was subjected to relentless physical and psychological torture, according to court documents. He was punched, kicked, beaten with sticks, dog toys, ropes, canes, belts, and even assaulted with a table leg and a broomstick for weeks before succumbing to his injuries. >Nordquist, originally from Minnesota, travelled to New York in September to meet his online girlfriend and was staying at Patty's Lodge motel in Canandaigua, about 30 minutes from Rochester. His family raised concerns after losing contact with him. >Police launched a missing persons investigation on February 9, and on Thursday, they uncovered a "deeply disturbing pattern of abuse" at the motel, according to New York State Police Captain Kelly Swift. >"In my 20-year law enforcement career, this is one of the most horrific crimes I have ever investigated," Ms Swift said at a press conference.

thatroof 2y ago
The real story of Matthew Shepard is more complex than the false story that has been popularized: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/26/the-truth-behind-americas-most-famous-gay-hate-murder-matthew-shepard https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/26/the-truth-behi... Shepard was a meth dealer and he was in a sexual relationship with the man who killed him.