6 ms·

What about D3js? I know that D3js is low level, but with AI it's pretty easy.

by abirch 2y ago

infecto 2y ago
I refuse to use it out of principle that they have intertwined it with observable. All the modern docs for d3 assume you are using observable. So unless you are relying entirely on AI it’s now even harder to grok the documentation. Not sure why this is so contentious. You can search online how many others this impacted as well. All of the modern examples for d3 were rebaked into the observable notebook pattern and it seriously obfuscated how to use d3 itself.
- dleeftink 2y ago
  There's Plot, which is as standalone as anything[0]. That said, I still find D3 unparalleled in depth and scope. [0]: https://github.com/observablehq/plot https://github.com/observablehq/plot
  - josephg 2y ago
    I used Plot for an academic paper I wrote recently. It was the only charting library that I found that let me generate the charts I wanted to draw - which in my case was a grouped bar chart with a logarithmic scale. Ie: https://github.com/josephg/egwalker-paper/blob/master/diagrams/timings.svg https://github.com/josephg/egwalker-paper/blob/master/diagra... I didn't try echarts though. I might have to give it a go if its good.
    - shiandow 2y ago
      I reckon you can get something quite similar with matplotlib without too much trouble, though that strongly depends on how comfortable or familiar you are with it.
- jwilber 2y ago
  This is a very bizarre take. If you want to just blindly copy and paste d3 code, you may have issues with the docs being hosted on observable. But absolutely zero part of the d3 api (or core design patterns of use) have anything to do with observable. It’s like saying, “I refuse to use PyTorch because their docs are built with mkdocs.” Moreover, even if the coupling were limiting (which, again, it is not), it’s odd to attack observable since everything they put out is fully open-source. It’s not like they’re hiding docs behind a paywall, they’re actively contributing to the viz ecosystem through basically everything they release (eg Observable Plot, Observable framework). As far as echarts goes, it’s a great tool. The declarative syntax for charting always feels a bit odd, but it’s easy enough to wrap into component libraries. AFAIK it still powers many of the big BI viz tools used today (eg AWS Quicksight).
  - infecto 2y ago
    Look, it’s not “bizarre” to point out that Observable has deeply shaped the modern D3 ecosystem. The issue isn’t that the D3 API has changed, it’s that a huge number of learning resources, examples, and docs have been rebaked into Observable’s reactive notebook style, which, for people not using Observable, adds a ton of indirection and mental overhead. You might not notice it if you already know D3 inside and out, but for newcomers, it’s a bit of a turnoff. It’s ok if you like it though! And no, this isn’t about “blindly copying and pasting.” It’s about people wanting to use D3 without having to learn an entirely different execution environment. That’s a reasonable boundary to set, especially when time and focus are finite. You can use as many italics as you want but I don’t think it’s a wildly bold claim and your counter example is simply silly.
    - abtinf 2y ago
      Pre-observable, I used d3 to develop a very complex visualization with real-time updates. It was difficult because d3 has a lot well-thought-out-but-complex concepts, but the docs and examples helped me fully understand how it worked, and the result turned out spectacular. A few years later, I needed to build a simple novel visualization. A major new version of d3 had come out, and all the examples and documentation got Observable-ified. Enough time had passed that I could only vaguely recall some of the original concepts, so I set out to re-learn. YMMV but, for me, it was impenetrable. With the limited time I had, I just couldn’t figure out how to untangle d3 from observable. I gave up. Very sad.
- kowlo 2y ago
  It's a shame - and I'm not sure why they did it other than to use D3.js' popularity promote Observable.
- the_real_cher 2y ago
  When did Observable get their hands on D3? Last time I looked at D3 a half decade or so ago I thought it was an open source lib?
  - infecto 2y ago
    Past few years but I don’t have a timeline handy. I am probably ignoring important details but Mike Bostock cofounded observable maybe 4-5 years ago? So for all intents and purposes they have always been the same crew but they made a conscious decision to tightly intertwine d3 docs with observable notebooks.
  - gaws 2y ago
    > When did Observable get their hands on D3? Observable and D3 were created by the same person.
rorylaitila 2y ago
We needed charting for ad-hoc business reporting from SQL. ECharts was at the right level of ease of use and available charts, interactive, and looks great right out of the box.
ActVen 2y ago
I used to love using it. But, all of my coworkers hated it. I haven't revisited since the AI boom. Maybe it will have a bit of a comeback. Many people found it too difficult.
kowlo 2y ago
Not touching D3.js since Observable.
smelendez 2y ago
Depends on the use case. If you’re a data viz team and do this all the time, and everyone knows or is willing to learn D3, then sure. Otherwise, if you just need to add a graph to your website, you may find it slows you down and makes code less maintainable. I personally find it confusing and as others mentioned I can forget how it works over time, though I admire it. I don’t think I could jump in and edit D3 code today without careful study, any more than I could jump in and edit Perl code. Echarts/Highcharts etc. are much more intuitive.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

What about D3js? I know that D3js is low level, but with AI it's pretty easy.

by abirch 2y ago

What about D3js? I know that D3js is low level, but with AI it's pretty easy.

I refuse to use it out of principle that they have intertwined it with observable. All the modern docs for d3 assume you are using observable. So unless you are relying entirely on AI it’s now even harder to grok the documentation. Not sure why this is so contentious. You can search online how many others this impacted as well. All of the modern examples for d3 were rebaked into the observable notebook pattern and it seriously obfuscated how to use d3 itself.

dleeftink 2y ago
There's Plot, which is as standalone as anything[0]. That said, I still find D3 unparalleled in depth and scope. [0]: https://github.com/observablehq/plot https://github.com/observablehq/plot
- josephg 2y ago
  I used Plot for an academic paper I wrote recently. It was the only charting library that I found that let me generate the charts I wanted to draw - which in my case was a grouped bar chart with a logarithmic scale. Ie: https://github.com/josephg/egwalker-paper/blob/master/diagrams/timings.svg https://github.com/josephg/egwalker-paper/blob/master/diagra... I didn't try echarts though. I might have to give it a go if its good.
  - shiandow 2y ago
    I reckon you can get something quite similar with matplotlib without too much trouble, though that strongly depends on how comfortable or familiar you are with it.
jwilber 2y ago
This is a very bizarre take. If you want to just blindly copy and paste d3 code, you may have issues with the docs being hosted on observable. But absolutely zero part of the d3 api (or core design patterns of use) have anything to do with observable. It’s like saying, “I refuse to use PyTorch because their docs are built with mkdocs.” Moreover, even if the coupling were limiting (which, again, it is not), it’s odd to attack observable since everything they put out is fully open-source. It’s not like they’re hiding docs behind a paywall, they’re actively contributing to the viz ecosystem through basically everything they release (eg Observable Plot, Observable framework). As far as echarts goes, it’s a great tool. The declarative syntax for charting always feels a bit odd, but it’s easy enough to wrap into component libraries. AFAIK it still powers many of the big BI viz tools used today (eg AWS Quicksight).
- infecto 2y ago
  Look, it’s not “bizarre” to point out that Observable has deeply shaped the modern D3 ecosystem. The issue isn’t that the D3 API has changed, it’s that a huge number of learning resources, examples, and docs have been rebaked into Observable’s reactive notebook style, which, for people not using Observable, adds a ton of indirection and mental overhead. You might not notice it if you already know D3 inside and out, but for newcomers, it’s a bit of a turnoff. It’s ok if you like it though! And no, this isn’t about “blindly copying and pasting.” It’s about people wanting to use D3 without having to learn an entirely different execution environment. That’s a reasonable boundary to set, especially when time and focus are finite. You can use as many italics as you want but I don’t think it’s a wildly bold claim and your counter example is simply silly.
  - abtinf 2y ago
    Pre-observable, I used d3 to develop a very complex visualization with real-time updates. It was difficult because d3 has a lot well-thought-out-but-complex concepts, but the docs and examples helped me fully understand how it worked, and the result turned out spectacular. A few years later, I needed to build a simple novel visualization. A major new version of d3 had come out, and all the examples and documentation got Observable-ified. Enough time had passed that I could only vaguely recall some of the original concepts, so I set out to re-learn. YMMV but, for me, it was impenetrable. With the limited time I had, I just couldn’t figure out how to untangle d3 from observable. I gave up. Very sad.
kowlo 2y ago
It's a shame - and I'm not sure why they did it other than to use D3.js' popularity promote Observable.
the_real_cher 2y ago
When did Observable get their hands on D3? Last time I looked at D3 a half decade or so ago I thought it was an open source lib?
- infecto 2y ago
  Past few years but I don’t have a timeline handy. I am probably ignoring important details but Mike Bostock cofounded observable maybe 4-5 years ago? So for all intents and purposes they have always been the same crew but they made a conscious decision to tightly intertwine d3 docs with observable notebooks.
- gaws 2y ago
  > When did Observable get their hands on D3? Observable and D3 were created by the same person.

rorylaitila 2y ago

We needed charting for ad-hoc business reporting from SQL. ECharts was at the right level of ease of use and available charts, interactive, and looks great right out of the box.

ActVen 2y ago

I used to love using it. But, all of my coworkers hated it. I haven't revisited since the AI boom. Maybe it will have a bit of a comeback. Many people found it too difficult.

kowlo 2y ago

Not touching D3.js since Observable.

smelendez 2y ago

Depends on the use case. If you’re a data viz team and do this all the time, and everyone knows or is willing to learn D3, then sure. Otherwise, if you just need to add a graph to your website, you may find it slows you down and makes code less maintainable. I personally find it confusing and as others mentioned I can forget how it works over time, though I admire it. I don’t think I could jump in and edit D3 code today without careful study, any more than I could jump in and edit Perl code. Echarts/Highcharts etc. are much more intuitive.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]