5 ms·

>The issue is lying about your experiences Side note, as far as a job requirements goes the bigger issue is asking for impossibly diverse experience and asking

>The issue is lying about your experiences Side note, as far as a job requirements goes the bigger issue is asking for impossibly diverse experience and asking for things that can be easily learnt. This promotes lying because the liars are the ones that are rewarded with an initial interview. I was talking to a fresh graduate with some volunteer experience who was having difficulty getting a job, and all I could hesitatingly recommenced was to tell him lie on his resume so that his resume could get past the screening.

gspencley 2y ago
> Side note, as far as a job requirements goes the bigger issue is asking for impossibly diverse experience and asking for things that can be easily learnt. Really? That's the bigger issue? Company wants to pay money to someone in exchange for services. They have unreasonable expectations. So that makes it OK for people to deceive them in order to have them believe that their unreasonable expectations have been met? I don't think that unreasonable expectations should be rewarded. But an unreasonable expectation is just "being stupid and harming yourself." Deceiving others in order to take their money under false pretences (which is fraud) is immoral and harms others. The two are not remotely comparable. > This promotes lying No it doesn't. If someone feels "encouraged" to lie and defraud others because they want something from them (even if the "someone else" is objectively stupid), that is no one's fault but their own. And their wishes and desires are just as unreasonable as the company's. [The wish/desire on the part of the applicant is wishing that the company had reasonable expectations]
- dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
  So what would be your advise to a fresh graduate (or even an experienced person) whose resume says experience in ".NET 3.0" where as the job posting says experience needed in ".NET 3.1" ? Remember it's HR or some automated system that does the screening.
- miki123211 2y ago
  The problem is that if everybody lies and you're the one not lying, you're worse off. In that scenario, the choice is between lying and being on even footing with everybody else, versus staying honest and getting an unfair disadvantage for it. If enough participants lie, some of the honest participants get pushed out of the system, which makes lying more socially acceptable, which causes even more participants to lie... and so the feedback loop goes.
  - ralferoo 2y ago
    Not everyone lies. To say everyone does is just lying to yourself in an attempt at rationalisation. Tell the truth. If you perform poorly in an interview, you now know where your weaknesses are. Work on them. Do a hobby project that lets you gain experience in that area. Use that as an example in your interview. Not only can you be truthful, you'll be more confident as you'll actually understand what you're talking about and can turn it into a positive - "I was weak in this area, so I went off an studied it myself" reveals more about your character than just the specific thing you learned.
    - rcxdude 2y ago
      Half the issue is companies where you won't even get to an interview without a juiced-up CV, and the rest is a interviewing and hiring decision process that doesn't penalize liars. If people felt your advice was the best way to get ahead, then they'd follow it, but when they see people who are just good bullshitters rocket past them in the system, they're not gonna feel good about it. (How accurate this perception is is an important point: I'm inclined to believe that this nihilistic "everything is bullshit" philosophy is incorrect and self-defeating, but it's hard to deny many high-profile examples that show that bullshitting can be stunningly successful, while honesty and hard work can fail horribly)
      - ralferoo 2y ago
        This still doesn't justify lying to a potential employer. If your CV won't get you to an interview, then you don't have the skills they are looking for. Aside from lying, you have other choices - spend some time working on personal projects to get the skills you need, obtain a recognised qualification in the skills you need, or try to find some way to obtain those skills in your current job. All of those will increase your real value to the potential employers, and gain you the opportunity to get the interview you want. If a company catches you lying in an interview, they're absolutely right to blacklist you forever. How do you expect them to ever trust you to be telling the truth in the future if your very first contact with them is built on a lie?
- wqaatwt 2y ago
  Well if the idea is that the lying (to a sane degree) is only necessary to pass the “filter” and that it has limited impact on the candidate’s ability to perform the actual work its not necessarily that straightforward.
- mystified5016 2y ago
  I mean, we have companies out there posting "entry level" positions and demanding 10 years experience in a technology that's only existed for five. All bets are off, man.
_bin_ 2y ago
My compromise here is invisible words in the PDF. I pack it with every freaking keyword I can think of because I have absolutely no issues with lying to a robot and don't feel the need to a respect a hiring process where they can't be bothered to so much as read my resume. Funny enough I often get offers after that even when I don't have some specific technology. That said, my personal ethics don't let me lie to an actual person.
- polishdude20 2y ago
  Do OCR systems still detect invisible words? I would have thought by now they'd use pixel based image recognition.
  - filoeleven 2y ago
    I doubt they're using OCR. More likely they're using one of the many text extractors available for PDFs. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3650957/how-to-extract-text-from-a-pdf https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3650957/how-to-extract-t...
  - hoerzu 2y ago
    I think nowadays they directly use screen share and image recognition like https://interview.sh https://interview.sh for example
- hansvm 2y ago
  Interesting, that still works? I first heard about that a decade ago.
  - sarlalian 2y ago
    You can occasionally prompt the AI resume review systems using the white text as well.
    - wyclif 2y ago
      Really depressing to think about, as one who has never tried to game the system.
jajko 2y ago
Nope, that's just rather bland justification of cheating. Not sure how US corporations work, but in Europe any big company would flag you internally so you won't be able to work there for a decade, and the mark still remains in their hiring system afterwards. Just a stupid thing to do, as lying always is. This are not school exams, company wants to hire the best candidate. If all fail then best failing is still the best candidate, and this can be measured and/or perceived by skilled interviewers.
- wqaatwt 2y ago
  > would flag you internally And how would they figure that out if you lie by exaggerating your experience and skills and not outright making up entirely false stuff?
  - jajko 2y ago
    Its up to interviewers but discussed matters can be checked quickly (ah you claim 10 years java backend integration experience? Ok lets dig deep. If reality is (almost) 0 thats lying in plain view). Also not sure you understand english language, greatly exaggerating or making up stuff is still same lying, details are irrelevant.
    - wqaatwt 2y ago
      > is still same No it’s not the same. But at this point I’m pretty sure you don’t understand the concept of nuance. Sure, 10 vs 0 years is obvious. Why even bring up such an example? What about 7 vs 10 or 3 vs 5? Maybe it’s technically lying but who cares if it works out at the end? What do these numbers even mean? A person who has 3 years of experience in Java can be better than someone who technically has 5.. Especially when those N years requirements are not necessarily put in there by the people who you’re actually going to work in.
- SR2Z 2y ago
  Even reneging on an offer in the US gets you blacklisted for like 5 years max. It's not personal, it's just business.

gspencley 2y ago

> Side note, as far as a job requirements goes the bigger issue is asking for impossibly diverse experience and asking for things that can be easily learnt. Really? That's the bigger issue? Company wants to pay money to someone in exchange for services. They have unreasonable expectations. So that makes it OK for people to deceive them in order to have them believe that their unreasonable expectations have been met? I don't think that unreasonable expectations should be rewarded. But an unreasonable expectation is just "being stupid and harming yourself." Deceiving others in order to take their money under false pretences (which is fraud) is immoral and harms others. The two are not remotely comparable. > This promotes lying No it doesn't. If someone feels "encouraged" to lie and defraud others because they want something from them (even if the "someone else" is objectively stupid), that is no one's fault but their own. And their wishes and desires are just as unreasonable as the company's. [The wish/desire on the part of the applicant is wishing that the company had reasonable expectations]

dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
So what would be your advise to a fresh graduate (or even an experienced person) whose resume says experience in ".NET 3.0" where as the job posting says experience needed in ".NET 3.1" ? Remember it's HR or some automated system that does the screening.
miki123211 2y ago
The problem is that if everybody lies and you're the one not lying, you're worse off. In that scenario, the choice is between lying and being on even footing with everybody else, versus staying honest and getting an unfair disadvantage for it. If enough participants lie, some of the honest participants get pushed out of the system, which makes lying more socially acceptable, which causes even more participants to lie... and so the feedback loop goes.
- ralferoo 2y ago
  Not everyone lies. To say everyone does is just lying to yourself in an attempt at rationalisation. Tell the truth. If you perform poorly in an interview, you now know where your weaknesses are. Work on them. Do a hobby project that lets you gain experience in that area. Use that as an example in your interview. Not only can you be truthful, you'll be more confident as you'll actually understand what you're talking about and can turn it into a positive - "I was weak in this area, so I went off an studied it myself" reveals more about your character than just the specific thing you learned.
  - rcxdude 2y ago
    Half the issue is companies where you won't even get to an interview without a juiced-up CV, and the rest is a interviewing and hiring decision process that doesn't penalize liars. If people felt your advice was the best way to get ahead, then they'd follow it, but when they see people who are just good bullshitters rocket past them in the system, they're not gonna feel good about it. (How accurate this perception is is an important point: I'm inclined to believe that this nihilistic "everything is bullshit" philosophy is incorrect and self-defeating, but it's hard to deny many high-profile examples that show that bullshitting can be stunningly successful, while honesty and hard work can fail horribly)
    - ralferoo 2y ago
      This still doesn't justify lying to a potential employer. If your CV won't get you to an interview, then you don't have the skills they are looking for. Aside from lying, you have other choices - spend some time working on personal projects to get the skills you need, obtain a recognised qualification in the skills you need, or try to find some way to obtain those skills in your current job. All of those will increase your real value to the potential employers, and gain you the opportunity to get the interview you want. If a company catches you lying in an interview, they're absolutely right to blacklist you forever. How do you expect them to ever trust you to be telling the truth in the future if your very first contact with them is built on a lie?
wqaatwt 2y ago
Well if the idea is that the lying (to a sane degree) is only necessary to pass the “filter” and that it has limited impact on the candidate’s ability to perform the actual work its not necessarily that straightforward.
mystified5016 2y ago
I mean, we have companies out there posting "entry level" positions and demanding 10 years experience in a technology that's only existed for five. All bets are off, man.

_bin_ 2y ago

My compromise here is invisible words in the PDF. I pack it with every freaking keyword I can think of because I have absolutely no issues with lying to a robot and don't feel the need to a respect a hiring process where they can't be bothered to so much as read my resume. Funny enough I often get offers after that even when I don't have some specific technology. That said, my personal ethics don't let me lie to an actual person.

polishdude20 2y ago
Do OCR systems still detect invisible words? I would have thought by now they'd use pixel based image recognition.
- filoeleven 2y ago
  I doubt they're using OCR. More likely they're using one of the many text extractors available for PDFs. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3650957/how-to-extract-text-from-a-pdf https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3650957/how-to-extract-t...
- hoerzu 2y ago
  I think nowadays they directly use screen share and image recognition like https://interview.sh https://interview.sh for example
hansvm 2y ago
Interesting, that still works? I first heard about that a decade ago.
- sarlalian 2y ago
  You can occasionally prompt the AI resume review systems using the white text as well.
  - wyclif 2y ago
    Really depressing to think about, as one who has never tried to game the system.

jajko 2y ago

Nope, that's just rather bland justification of cheating. Not sure how US corporations work, but in Europe any big company would flag you internally so you won't be able to work there for a decade, and the mark still remains in their hiring system afterwards. Just a stupid thing to do, as lying always is. This are not school exams, company wants to hire the best candidate. If all fail then best failing is still the best candidate, and this can be measured and/or perceived by skilled interviewers.

wqaatwt 2y ago
> would flag you internally And how would they figure that out if you lie by exaggerating your experience and skills and not outright making up entirely false stuff?
- jajko 2y ago
  Its up to interviewers but discussed matters can be checked quickly (ah you claim 10 years java backend integration experience? Ok lets dig deep. If reality is (almost) 0 thats lying in plain view). Also not sure you understand english language, greatly exaggerating or making up stuff is still same lying, details are irrelevant.
  - wqaatwt 2y ago
    > is still same No it’s not the same. But at this point I’m pretty sure you don’t understand the concept of nuance. Sure, 10 vs 0 years is obvious. Why even bring up such an example? What about 7 vs 10 or 3 vs 5? Maybe it’s technically lying but who cares if it works out at the end? What do these numbers even mean? A person who has 3 years of experience in Java can be better than someone who technically has 5.. Especially when those N years requirements are not necessarily put in there by the people who you’re actually going to work in.
SR2Z 2y ago
Even reneging on an offer in the US gets you blacklisted for like 5 years max. It's not personal, it's just business.