3 ms·

If you use this technology, you're actively harming creative labor.

by __loam 2y ago

Empact 2y ago
Creative labor is not entitled to the work parent comment is describing. We employ labor because it is beneficial to us, not merely because it exists as an option. Creative labor’s responsibility is to adapt to a changing world and find roles where their labor is not simply produced / exceeded by a computer system. Practically speaking, the work described would most likely never have been done, rather than been done by an artist if that were the only option - it’s uncommon to employ artists to help with incidental tasks relative to side projects, etc.
genewitch 2y ago
Whatever. I wrote and co-wrote ten albums and my total take was $3. The market is saturated and the way it works means ten get rich for every million artists. I feel as though this has been pretty constant throughout history. Of course there's a lot of talent out there, "wasted", but I think that's always been the case. How many William Shakesmans did we lose with all the war, famine, disease? I actually decided I'd probably never write music again after 1-shot making a song about the south Korea coup attempt several months ago. I had the song done before the news really even hit the US. Why would I destroy my own hearing writing music anymore when I can prompt an AI to do it for me, with the same net result - no one cares. here's the 3-shot remix, the triangle cracks me up so much that i had to upload it https://soundcloud.com/djoutcold/coup-detat-symphony-remix https://soundcloud.com/djoutcold/coup-detat-symphony-remix the "original" "1-shot" is on my soundcloud page as well. https://soundcloud.com/djoutcold/i-aint-even-writing-music-anymore-byeeee https://soundcloud.com/djoutcold/i-aint-even-writing-music-a... it's in lojban. That's why you can't understand it. Yes. Lojban. Brings a tear to my eye every time i hear it. fkin AI [0] more my style - hold music for our PBX https://soundcloud.com/djoutcold/bew-hold-music https://soundcloud.com/djoutcold/bew-hold-music also all my stuff is CC licensed, mostly CC0 at this point.
- Garlef 2y ago
  > How many William Shakesmans did we lose with all the war, famine, disease? (Just a small comment out of context of the remaining discussion:) Maybe not many? It could be that "cultural attention" is limited and there's not much space at the top anyways. In other words: It might be that there's always a few famous artists that get remembered and the rest is forgotten. Same as winning the world cup: There's always a team that wins and it says nothing about the quality in a universal way. At best it says something about quality relative to the competition. (Not sure I'd fully get behind the argument i composed here. But I found it interesting.)
  - megaloblasto 2y ago
    do you think that if the Beatles never existed, some other group would have absorbed their fame, like a power vacuum being filled? I've wondered this before. Or maybe they just really were that good.
- globnomulous 2y ago
  > I feel as though this has been pretty constant throughout history. It hasn't. Look up the collapse of the viability of music as a career. Jaron Lanier has written on this.
ldoughty 2y ago
Can you elaborate how there's no possible way to use this technology without actively harming artists? If a classroom of 14 year olds are making a game in their computer science class, and they use AI to make placeholder images... Was a real artist harmed? The teacher certainly cant afford to pay artists to provide content for all the students games, and most students can't afford to hire an artist either.. they perhaps can't even legally do it, if the artist requires a contract... they are underage in most countries to sign a contract. This technology gives the kids a lot more freedom than a pre-packaged asset library, and can encourage more engagement with the course content, leading to more people interested in creative-employing pursuits. So, I think this technology can create a new generation of creative individuals, and statements about the blanket harm need to be qualified.
- __loam 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - fc417fc802 2y ago
    The straw man is yours. No claim of entitlement was made. A scenario was provided that appears to refute your unconditional assertion that using this technology actively harms creative labor. You've presented all sorts of wild assumptions and generalizations about the people who don't share your vehement opposition to the use of this technology. I don't think it's the person you're responding to with the implicit bias. You've conflated theft with piracy (all too common) and assumed a priori that training a model on publicly available data constitutes such. Do you really expect people to blindly adopt your ideological views if you just state them forcefully enough? > If using AI is okay for the creative labor, why shouldn't the students also use it for the programming too? They absolutely should! At least provided it does the job well enough. Unless they are taking a class whose point is to learn to program yourself (ie the game is just a means to an end). Similar to how you might be forbidden to use certain advanced calculator features in a math class. If you enroll in an art class and then just prompt GPT that likely defeats the purpose.
    - 2y ago
immibis 2y ago
Only if there was ever any chance you would have hired some for that task.
Animats 2y ago
Creative labor is going the way of manual labor.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  No, I disagree. If anything, all of the (mostly rich) STEM people that I know spend a large portion of their disposable income on things and experiences that creative people make: Music, film, restaurants, art, books/magazines, etc. Image and video generation via LLMs will become one more tool for creative people to make new & cool stuff.
becquerel 2y ago
All labor is bad.
- satvikpendem 2y ago
  Interesting philosophy, what is this predicated on? Do you mean that people should not have to work for a living, ie labor versus play?
  - fc417fc802 2y ago
    Is that not self evident? When people engage in labor for the task itself (as opposed to a heavily abstracted version of not wanting to starve) we generally refer to that as a hobby. So stating that people shouldn't need to worry about starving (metaphorically or otherwise) would be roughly equivalent.
    - satvikpendem 2y ago
      It is not always evident especially when it comes to a site all about capital accumulation like HN, more due to its association with a venture capital firm.
      - fc417fc802 2y ago
        Statistically, Jane Street probably employs at least a few communists.
    - esafak 2y ago
      What do you mean? For example, are vets or artists working to pay their bills laboring or practicing a hobby?
      - fc417fc802 2y ago
        Aside from artists that make it big it seems like the majority of them are forced to make compromises in order to continue practicing their desired craft full time. Much of their behavior is dictated by "not starving" rather than their personal preferences. And many fold more than that are forced to drop out to "get a real job". Of course all of the above is a good thing from the perspective of maximizing the quality of life across society as a whole. But wouldn't it be nicer if we didn't have to do (as much of) that?
lupusreal 2y ago
I was never going to hire a professional artist to sketch shit up for me. I have replaced MS Paint, not harmed "creative labor".

If you use this technology, you're actively harming creative labor.

by __loam 2y ago

If you use this technology, you're actively harming creative labor.

Creative labor is not entitled to the work parent comment is describing. We employ labor because it is beneficial to us, not merely because it exists as an option. Creative labor’s responsibility is to adapt to a changing world and find roles where their labor is not simply produced / exceeded by a computer system. Practically speaking, the work described would most likely never have been done, rather than been done by an artist if that were the only option - it’s uncommon to employ artists to help with incidental tasks relative to side projects, etc.

genewitch 2y ago

Whatever. I wrote and co-wrote ten albums and my total take was $3. The market is saturated and the way it works means ten get rich for every million artists. I feel as though this has been pretty constant throughout history. Of course there's a lot of talent out there, "wasted", but I think that's always been the case. How many William Shakesmans did we lose with all the war, famine, disease? I actually decided I'd probably never write music again after 1-shot making a song about the south Korea coup attempt several months ago. I had the song done before the news really even hit the US. Why would I destroy my own hearing writing music anymore when I can prompt an AI to do it for me, with the same net result - no one cares. here's the 3-shot remix, the triangle cracks me up so much that i had to upload it https://soundcloud.com/djoutcold/coup-detat-symphony-remix https://soundcloud.com/djoutcold/coup-detat-symphony-remix the "original" "1-shot" is on my soundcloud page as well. https://soundcloud.com/djoutcold/i-aint-even-writing-music-anymore-byeeee https://soundcloud.com/djoutcold/i-aint-even-writing-music-a... it's in lojban. That's why you can't understand it. Yes. Lojban. Brings a tear to my eye every time i hear it. fkin AI [0] more my style - hold music for our PBX https://soundcloud.com/djoutcold/bew-hold-music https://soundcloud.com/djoutcold/bew-hold-music also all my stuff is CC licensed, mostly CC0 at this point.

Garlef 2y ago
> How many William Shakesmans did we lose with all the war, famine, disease? (Just a small comment out of context of the remaining discussion:) Maybe not many? It could be that "cultural attention" is limited and there's not much space at the top anyways. In other words: It might be that there's always a few famous artists that get remembered and the rest is forgotten. Same as winning the world cup: There's always a team that wins and it says nothing about the quality in a universal way. At best it says something about quality relative to the competition. (Not sure I'd fully get behind the argument i composed here. But I found it interesting.)
- megaloblasto 2y ago
  do you think that if the Beatles never existed, some other group would have absorbed their fame, like a power vacuum being filled? I've wondered this before. Or maybe they just really were that good.
globnomulous 2y ago
> I feel as though this has been pretty constant throughout history. It hasn't. Look up the collapse of the viability of music as a career. Jaron Lanier has written on this.

ldoughty 2y ago

Can you elaborate how there's no possible way to use this technology without actively harming artists? If a classroom of 14 year olds are making a game in their computer science class, and they use AI to make placeholder images... Was a real artist harmed? The teacher certainly cant afford to pay artists to provide content for all the students games, and most students can't afford to hire an artist either.. they perhaps can't even legally do it, if the artist requires a contract... they are underage in most countries to sign a contract. This technology gives the kids a lot more freedom than a pre-packaged asset library, and can encourage more engagement with the course content, leading to more people interested in creative-employing pursuits. So, I think this technology can create a new generation of creative individuals, and statements about the blanket harm need to be qualified.

__loam 2y ago
[flagged]
- fc417fc802 2y ago
  The straw man is yours. No claim of entitlement was made. A scenario was provided that appears to refute your unconditional assertion that using this technology actively harms creative labor. You've presented all sorts of wild assumptions and generalizations about the people who don't share your vehement opposition to the use of this technology. I don't think it's the person you're responding to with the implicit bias. You've conflated theft with piracy (all too common) and assumed a priori that training a model on publicly available data constitutes such. Do you really expect people to blindly adopt your ideological views if you just state them forcefully enough? > If using AI is okay for the creative labor, why shouldn't the students also use it for the programming too? They absolutely should! At least provided it does the job well enough. Unless they are taking a class whose point is to learn to program yourself (ie the game is just a means to an end). Similar to how you might be forbidden to use certain advanced calculator features in a math class. If you enroll in an art class and then just prompt GPT that likely defeats the purpose.
  - 2y ago

immibis 2y ago

Only if there was ever any chance you would have hired some for that task.

Animats 2y ago

Creative labor is going the way of manual labor.

throwaway2037 2y ago
No, I disagree. If anything, all of the (mostly rich) STEM people that I know spend a large portion of their disposable income on things and experiences that creative people make: Music, film, restaurants, art, books/magazines, etc. Image and video generation via LLMs will become one more tool for creative people to make new & cool stuff.

becquerel 2y ago

All labor is bad.

satvikpendem 2y ago
Interesting philosophy, what is this predicated on? Do you mean that people should not have to work for a living, ie labor versus play?
- fc417fc802 2y ago
  Is that not self evident? When people engage in labor for the task itself (as opposed to a heavily abstracted version of not wanting to starve) we generally refer to that as a hobby. So stating that people shouldn't need to worry about starving (metaphorically or otherwise) would be roughly equivalent.
  - satvikpendem 2y ago
    It is not always evident especially when it comes to a site all about capital accumulation like HN, more due to its association with a venture capital firm.
    - fc417fc802 2y ago
      Statistically, Jane Street probably employs at least a few communists.
  - esafak 2y ago
    What do you mean? For example, are vets or artists working to pay their bills laboring or practicing a hobby?
    - fc417fc802 2y ago
      Aside from artists that make it big it seems like the majority of them are forced to make compromises in order to continue practicing their desired craft full time. Much of their behavior is dictated by "not starving" rather than their personal preferences. And many fold more than that are forced to drop out to "get a real job". Of course all of the above is a good thing from the perspective of maximizing the quality of life across society as a whole. But wouldn't it be nicer if we didn't have to do (as much of) that?

lupusreal 2y ago

I was never going to hire a professional artist to sketch shit up for me. I have replaced MS Paint, not harmed "creative labor".