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Footnote: "survival of the fittest" is circular. Bob: It's about the survival of the fittest. Alice: Fittest with respect to what? Bob: Survival. So, surviv

Footnote: "survival of the fittest" is circular. Bob: It's about the survival of the fittest. Alice: Fittest with respect to what? Bob: Survival. So, survival of the fittest to survive, or what survives, survives. It is utterly banal, but in popular culture, it has been "elevated" into a deepity.

harperlee 2y ago
I think it is 'fittest with respect with the current / incoming environment', in contrast with 'strongest' / 'fastest' / some other absolute measurement, at the expense of the rest.
bmacho 2y ago
It's not circular, it's just true in the purest sense. As all mathematical theorems are either tautologies or consequences of assumptions, therefore pure assumptions. For me survival of the fittest just means that with high probability those genes will survive who have a high probability to survive in an evolutionary setting. Is this trivial? In this wording it is trivial. But it can be useful. (And also it is not that trivial in a different wording. Just like other theorems, e.g. the theorem about the perpendicular bisectors of a triangle's sides. If a point O is equal distance from A and B and B and C then it is equal distance from A and C. Tautology, circular, assumption, name it what you want, it's math.)
SAI_Peregrinus 2y ago
Survival of the fittest to reproduce. Not just to survive, but to spread. The key profundity is that it's so banal, there's no need for a God directing it.
HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago
Fittest means best fitted to the prevailing environment, but of course the fitness being tested is ability to survive and reproduce (i.e. keep on playing the game of evolution). It's almost a circular/tautological description ("survival of the survivors"), but "fittest" does at least allude to why some survive better than others (better adapted to prevailing environment), as well as the fact ("fitt-EST" vs "fit") that it's a competition for limited resources. Fitness is a matter of degree.

harperlee 2y ago

I think it is 'fittest with respect with the current / incoming environment', in contrast with 'strongest' / 'fastest' / some other absolute measurement, at the expense of the rest.

bmacho 2y ago

It's not circular, it's just true in the purest sense. As all mathematical theorems are either tautologies or consequences of assumptions, therefore pure assumptions. For me survival of the fittest just means that with high probability those genes will survive who have a high probability to survive in an evolutionary setting. Is this trivial? In this wording it is trivial. But it can be useful. (And also it is not that trivial in a different wording. Just like other theorems, e.g. the theorem about the perpendicular bisectors of a triangle's sides. If a point O is equal distance from A and B and B and C then it is equal distance from A and C. Tautology, circular, assumption, name it what you want, it's math.)

SAI_Peregrinus 2y ago

Survival of the fittest to reproduce. Not just to survive, but to spread. The key profundity is that it's so banal, there's no need for a God directing it.

HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago

Fittest means best fitted to the prevailing environment, but of course the fitness being tested is ability to survive and reproduce (i.e. keep on playing the game of evolution). It's almost a circular/tautological description ("survival of the survivors"), but "fittest" does at least allude to why some survive better than others (better adapted to prevailing environment), as well as the fact ("fitt-EST" vs "fit") that it's a competition for limited resources. Fitness is a matter of degree.