5 ms·

> Cryptocurrencies don't stand a chance. Does it work internationally? Does it send USD as well, or only the real? If it solves th same problems, why is Brazi

> Cryptocurrencies don't stand a chance. Does it work internationally? Does it send USD as well, or only the real? If it solves th same problems, why is Brazil considering banning self-custodial USD stablecoins? And why has there been an ongoing discussion about launching mBRL, and stablecoin pegged to the real? https://www.pymnts.com/cryptocurrency/2024/brazil-considers-banning-stablecoin-withdrawals-to-self-custodial-wallets/ https://www.pymnts.com/cryptocurrency/2024/brazil-considers-...

londons_explore 1y ago
Nearly every non-western country has it's own e-cash type system. Everything from m-pesa in Kenya to Gcash in the Philippines to PromptPay in Thailand to Alipay in China to SGQR in Singapore to MPay in Oman.... The pattern is that these systems are nearly all fully centralised, require ID, zero privacy, usually government sanctioned, and not cross border.
- pjc50 1y ago
  And quite a lot of Western ones like Vipps. And see this long list: https://truelayer.com/reports/alternative-payments/european-tour/ https://truelayer.com/reports/alternative-payments/european-... > require ID, zero privacy, usually government sanctioned Unfortunately systems that don't have those requirements are going to be money laundering channels. I wish it wasn't such a big concern but it's unavoidable.
  - earnesti 1y ago
    >> require ID, zero privacy, usually government sanctioned > Unfortunately systems that don't have those requirements are going to be money laundering channels. I wish it wasn't such a big concern but it's unavoidable. There same requirements also make the likelihood of these systems scaling beyong one jurisdiction very unlikely. Tourists don't want to set up a payment account for every country they visit. Or other way around, banks don't want to KYC and set up an account for every foreign tourist. As Visa and MC work globally, I'm betting that the dominance from those will continue. Cryptocurrencies might have some change of becoming the "global" transaction method as well.
    - alephnerd 1y ago
      > As Visa and MC work globally, I'm betting that the dominance from those will continue. China, India, Brazil, Russia, Japan, South Korea, and others are all trying to expand their own transaction networks. While it's still piecemeal, a Chinese or Indian tourist in Thailand can use UnionPay or UPI to transact without using Visa/Mastercard, a Russian tourist in Vietnam can use Mir, a Brazilian in Argentina can use Pix instead of Visa/MC as well, and a Japanese visitor in Singapore can use JCB instead. Even the ECB has recently started considering this option (though it might also be an attempt to force the Trump admin to negotiate). The biggest thing blocking international payment competitors is FATF, which has some regulations biased in favor of Visa/Mastercard. > Cryptocurrencies might have some change of becoming the "global" transaction method as well I'm not sure. Most jurisdictions that aren't the US and EU heavily regulate cryptocurrencies, and at best allow state managed or regulated cryptocurrencies, which basically makes the whole point of crypto moot.
      - notpushkin 1y ago
        > a Russian tourist in Vietnam can use Mir If you can find a place that actually accepts it! It’s certainly not as ubiquitous as the local Napas247 QR codes.
        alephnerd 1y ago
        Yep! And Napas247 was co-developed by Vietnam and South Korea (edit: Only VN - confused Shinhan's support for development work)! The point is there is a steady decoupling towards non-Visa/MC payment systems outside the US and EU, and it wouldn't be too surprising if a number of these systems begin supporting inter-operability within the next 10 years.
        notpushkin 1y ago
        Oh yeah, I think lots of QR code based systems in Asia are actually interoperable now (just not if you’re not a resident in any of these countries — e.g. I do have GCash, but my account works in Philippines only).
  - DeathArrow 1y ago
    This is not a good argument. We can't forbid everything just because it can be used by criminals. By the same thinking we should forbid cash, too. We have two ways: Give up all freedoms, forbid anything and transform the society into a mass surveillance society where everyone spies everyone, where is no anonimity and no privacy. Or require law enforcement to do a better jobs without people giving up their freedoms.
    - RHSeeger 1y ago
      There is a pretty big gray area in there. Literally every society on the planet has some form of "giving up their freedoms" in exchange for some amount of security. I would argue that it's impossible to have a stable society without that. The thing that's important is deciding which rights are worth protecting and which ones are ok to give up in exchange for security (or other reasons, presumably).
      - TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
        And it's not as if crypto is particularly anonymous. Transaction analysis will identify you unless you work hard at covering your tracks.
    - const_cast 1y ago
      [dead]
    - neves 1y ago
      Maybe you can if the main use of a coin is for ransomware or drug traficking
  - WillAdams 1y ago
    That's okay so long as criminals can still use public lotteries for that so that the government gets its cut.
- sharpshadow 1y ago
  And then BRICS comes along connecting all those countries payment systems and voilà the circle is complete.
jowea 1y ago
Only real afaik, although there have been some thoughts to integrating some neighbours to the system. Right afaik it works in shops popular with Brazilian tourists in the Southern Cone through some workarounds.
wslh 1y ago
> Does it work internationally? Does it send USD as well, or only the real? There are neighboring wallets (like Belo in Argentina) that support it, and I believe tourism will drive even more integration over time.
AlienRobot 1y ago
>Does it work internationally? Does crypto? You may have heard of this thing called "tariffs" lately. Even purchases of software licenses are tariffed in Brazil[1]. The average person purchasing goods with crypto is just going to ignore this and several similar laws. If you say crypto works to transact internationally, keep in mind: so does TF2 hats. 1: https://www.machadoassociados.com.br/en/2021/05/brazilian-federal-supreme-court-unravels-the-levy-of-taxes-on-software-licensing/ https://www.machadoassociados.com.br/en/2021/05/brazilian-fe...
- mhluongo 1y ago
  Indeed, TF2 hats and gift cards appear to do something well that this system doesn't :)
  - dwattttt 1y ago
    I note that that thing is not "abide by the law"

londons_explore 1y ago

Nearly every non-western country has it's own e-cash type system. Everything from m-pesa in Kenya to Gcash in the Philippines to PromptPay in Thailand to Alipay in China to SGQR in Singapore to MPay in Oman.... The pattern is that these systems are nearly all fully centralised, require ID, zero privacy, usually government sanctioned, and not cross border.

pjc50 1y ago
And quite a lot of Western ones like Vipps. And see this long list: https://truelayer.com/reports/alternative-payments/european-tour/ https://truelayer.com/reports/alternative-payments/european-... > require ID, zero privacy, usually government sanctioned Unfortunately systems that don't have those requirements are going to be money laundering channels. I wish it wasn't such a big concern but it's unavoidable.
- earnesti 1y ago
  >> require ID, zero privacy, usually government sanctioned > Unfortunately systems that don't have those requirements are going to be money laundering channels. I wish it wasn't such a big concern but it's unavoidable. There same requirements also make the likelihood of these systems scaling beyong one jurisdiction very unlikely. Tourists don't want to set up a payment account for every country they visit. Or other way around, banks don't want to KYC and set up an account for every foreign tourist. As Visa and MC work globally, I'm betting that the dominance from those will continue. Cryptocurrencies might have some change of becoming the "global" transaction method as well.
  - alephnerd 1y ago
    > As Visa and MC work globally, I'm betting that the dominance from those will continue. China, India, Brazil, Russia, Japan, South Korea, and others are all trying to expand their own transaction networks. While it's still piecemeal, a Chinese or Indian tourist in Thailand can use UnionPay or UPI to transact without using Visa/Mastercard, a Russian tourist in Vietnam can use Mir, a Brazilian in Argentina can use Pix instead of Visa/MC as well, and a Japanese visitor in Singapore can use JCB instead. Even the ECB has recently started considering this option (though it might also be an attempt to force the Trump admin to negotiate). The biggest thing blocking international payment competitors is FATF, which has some regulations biased in favor of Visa/Mastercard. > Cryptocurrencies might have some change of becoming the "global" transaction method as well I'm not sure. Most jurisdictions that aren't the US and EU heavily regulate cryptocurrencies, and at best allow state managed or regulated cryptocurrencies, which basically makes the whole point of crypto moot.
    - notpushkin 1y ago
      > a Russian tourist in Vietnam can use Mir If you can find a place that actually accepts it! It’s certainly not as ubiquitous as the local Napas247 QR codes.
      - alephnerd 1y ago
        Yep! And Napas247 was co-developed by Vietnam and South Korea (edit: Only VN - confused Shinhan's support for development work)! The point is there is a steady decoupling towards non-Visa/MC payment systems outside the US and EU, and it wouldn't be too surprising if a number of these systems begin supporting inter-operability within the next 10 years.
        notpushkin 1y ago
        Oh yeah, I think lots of QR code based systems in Asia are actually interoperable now (just not if you’re not a resident in any of these countries — e.g. I do have GCash, but my account works in Philippines only).
- DeathArrow 1y ago
  This is not a good argument. We can't forbid everything just because it can be used by criminals. By the same thinking we should forbid cash, too. We have two ways: Give up all freedoms, forbid anything and transform the society into a mass surveillance society where everyone spies everyone, where is no anonimity and no privacy. Or require law enforcement to do a better jobs without people giving up their freedoms.
  - RHSeeger 1y ago
    There is a pretty big gray area in there. Literally every society on the planet has some form of "giving up their freedoms" in exchange for some amount of security. I would argue that it's impossible to have a stable society without that. The thing that's important is deciding which rights are worth protecting and which ones are ok to give up in exchange for security (or other reasons, presumably).
    - TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
      And it's not as if crypto is particularly anonymous. Transaction analysis will identify you unless you work hard at covering your tracks.
  - const_cast 1y ago
    [dead]
  - neves 1y ago
    Maybe you can if the main use of a coin is for ransomware or drug traficking
- WillAdams 1y ago
  That's okay so long as criminals can still use public lotteries for that so that the government gets its cut.
sharpshadow 1y ago
And then BRICS comes along connecting all those countries payment systems and voilà the circle is complete.

jowea 1y ago

Only real afaik, although there have been some thoughts to integrating some neighbours to the system. Right afaik it works in shops popular with Brazilian tourists in the Southern Cone through some workarounds.

wslh 1y ago

> Does it work internationally? Does it send USD as well, or only the real? There are neighboring wallets (like Belo in Argentina) that support it, and I believe tourism will drive even more integration over time.

AlienRobot 1y ago

>Does it work internationally? Does crypto? You may have heard of this thing called "tariffs" lately. Even purchases of software licenses are tariffed in Brazil[1]. The average person purchasing goods with crypto is just going to ignore this and several similar laws. If you say crypto works to transact internationally, keep in mind: so does TF2 hats. 1: https://www.machadoassociados.com.br/en/2021/05/brazilian-federal-supreme-court-unravels-the-levy-of-taxes-on-software-licensing/ https://www.machadoassociados.com.br/en/2021/05/brazilian-fe...

mhluongo 1y ago
Indeed, TF2 hats and gift cards appear to do something well that this system doesn't :)
- dwattttt 1y ago
  I note that that thing is not "abide by the law"