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Which imperial power? If the US is an imperial power for defending their local dictator, how is PRC not one for doing likewise? Is it because the Communist empi

by thworp 1y ago

Which imperial power? If the US is an imperial power for defending their local dictator, how is PRC not one for doing likewise? Is it because the Communist empires loudly screamed that they‘re anti-imperialist as they went out and conquered their empires?

derelicta 1y ago
Til modern China is an Empire. If so, can you name at least one country under Chinese occupation, or one Chinese protectorate?
- leereeves 1y ago
  > If so, can you name at least one country under Chinese occupation, or one Chinese protectorate? Tibet.
  - derelicta 1y ago
    Tibet, before being re-integrated into the Chinese homeland, was a brutal theocracy whose population was 90% made of slaves. I hope you mentioned Tibet out of ignorance, and not out of nostalgia for human trafficking.
    - leereeves 1y ago
      > Tibet, before being re-integrated into the Chinese homeland, was a brutal theocracy whose population was 90% made of slaves. I hope you mentioned Tibet out of ignorance, and not out of nostalgia for human trafficking. I suspect that's a lie told by the Chinese, but even if it were true, it wouldn't change the fact that it's a country under Chinese occupation. Attempting to justify empire doesn't mean they aren't an empire. Anyway, let's set that aside and return to your question: > If so, can you name at least one country under Chinese occupation, or one Chinese protectorate? If you won't accept Tibet as occupied by China, consider North Korea as a Chinese protectorate.
      - derelicta 1y ago
        Except Tibet was part of China before westerns divorced it from China. I dunno why but I think I'm gonna trust people who used to be the victims of colonial domination and looting over the recidivist offenders of the said colonial domination and looting when it comes to Asian history. Also NK is a Chinese protectorate as much as the USA is a Republic.
        naabb 1y ago
        [flagged]
        leereeves 1y ago
        I should probably just drop this, but I'm genuinely curious. Why do you think the USA isn't a republic?
        derelicta 1y ago
        Because the way the US treats other nations. For most of its history, it has been a war. It bullies other nations, interfere in their democratic process, when it doesn't invade them, or suspend their constitution or fund fascist paramilitary death squads to destabilise them. It could strike and annihilate Denmark tomorrow; a lot of Americans would cheer. The US is very similar to the french Empire after the 1st Republic. It cloaks itself under the name of Republic, but isn't one itself. It's an evil country ran by evil people. The only difference is that Americans get to chose the Emperor every 4 years, whilst knowing no matter who is in charge, very little will change. Of course its people aren't inherently evil or anything. But the propaganda is intense and permanent, so Americans unfortunately behave like little emperors themselves. This applies to most of Europe too, naturally. That's why sometimes, I wish to pray to a higher power to spread class consciousness to the whole masses of America and Europe, but am also aware I'm part of the issue, and that it's wishful thinking.
  - slt2021 1y ago
    China "occupies" Tibet to the same degree that USA occupies California Republic, or Texas Republic. The fact that this meme stil lives in western mind just shows how pathetic and detached from reality is western anti-CCP propaganda. Propaganda should contain truth, to be credible, otherwise it ceased to be effective
    - leereeves 1y ago
      > China "occupies" Tibet to the same degree that USA occupies California Republic, or Texas Republic. You've got some facts wrong. The "California Republic" was a tiny rebellion against Mexico whose goal was to join the US. The Texas Republic also asked to join the US (and was turned down the first time). But if your point is that the US is as much an empire as China, I agree.
      - slt2021 1y ago
        I mean, just literally if you run a poll among United Nations members, people would rate the statement like "China occupies Tibet" and "USA occupies Texas" as the same delusional things - fantasy detached from reality
        leereeves 1y ago
        What are you basing that statement on? Was there are actually a UN vote, or are you just BSing?
        slt2021 1y ago
        did UN recognize tibet as occupied country or are you bsing?
  - ashoeafoot 1y ago
    Xinjiang and the uighurs?
- thworp 1y ago
  There is Tibet, which had declared independence in 1913 and then decisively split itself from China by expelling all Chinese in 1945. The PRC conquered them because they were part of the Chinese "motherland". You can argue that the communist were the lesser of two evils (I would agree), but you can't argue this wasn't an imperial conquest. The situation in the rest of China is a lot more complex. Most of warlords joined the PRC (sometimes through negotiation, mostly through surrender) when it was clear that the ROC - the competing but less centralized imperial power - had lost. The program of Han settlement, Sinicization and ethnic repression that occured in multiple waves (most acute in Xinjiang, Tibet, Inner Mongolia and some areas of SW China) was an imperial project. Externally, there is the Sino-Vietnamese war of 1979. While the reasons for the conflict were multi-faceted, one of them was that Vietnam had broken Cambodia out of the Chinese sphere by deposing the Khmer Rouge. Recently China has been building bases and shaping countries' economies and political systems around the world. Arguably they have already made the Solomon Islands a protectorate and a few African countries are also moving in that direction.
  - derelicta 1y ago
    The sino-vietnamese was a ridiculous mistake for the socialist project, that I agree with. But this wasn't an imperial war. When I mentioned modern China, I referred to the PRC, so after (most of its) national reunification. I fail to see how anti-terrorist repression in Xinjiang is akin to any form of imperialism. Otherwise they wouldn't celebrate those cultures on TV and during huge national events. This applies to Mongolia too. If the situation in China was similar to the genocide in Palestine, then those cultures and their people would be suppressed and not supported nor promoted.
    - ashoeafoot 1y ago
      it was.
    - naabb 1y ago
      Isn't it imperalistic to threaten Taiwan with invasion?
    - 1y ago
dttze 1y ago
The US and Japan did awful things to Koreans. Slavery, weaponized rape, bioweapons, and other numerous war crimes. So why are you asking which? Isn’t it obvious?

by thworp 1y ago

derelicta 1y ago

Til modern China is an Empire. If so, can you name at least one country under Chinese occupation, or one Chinese protectorate?

leereeves 1y ago
> If so, can you name at least one country under Chinese occupation, or one Chinese protectorate? Tibet.
- derelicta 1y ago
  Tibet, before being re-integrated into the Chinese homeland, was a brutal theocracy whose population was 90% made of slaves. I hope you mentioned Tibet out of ignorance, and not out of nostalgia for human trafficking.
  - leereeves 1y ago
    > Tibet, before being re-integrated into the Chinese homeland, was a brutal theocracy whose population was 90% made of slaves. I hope you mentioned Tibet out of ignorance, and not out of nostalgia for human trafficking. I suspect that's a lie told by the Chinese, but even if it were true, it wouldn't change the fact that it's a country under Chinese occupation. Attempting to justify empire doesn't mean they aren't an empire. Anyway, let's set that aside and return to your question: > If so, can you name at least one country under Chinese occupation, or one Chinese protectorate? If you won't accept Tibet as occupied by China, consider North Korea as a Chinese protectorate.
    - derelicta 1y ago
      Except Tibet was part of China before westerns divorced it from China. I dunno why but I think I'm gonna trust people who used to be the victims of colonial domination and looting over the recidivist offenders of the said colonial domination and looting when it comes to Asian history. Also NK is a Chinese protectorate as much as the USA is a Republic.
      - naabb 1y ago
        [flagged]
      - leereeves 1y ago
        I should probably just drop this, but I'm genuinely curious. Why do you think the USA isn't a republic?
        derelicta 1y ago
        Because the way the US treats other nations. For most of its history, it has been a war. It bullies other nations, interfere in their democratic process, when it doesn't invade them, or suspend their constitution or fund fascist paramilitary death squads to destabilise them. It could strike and annihilate Denmark tomorrow; a lot of Americans would cheer. The US is very similar to the french Empire after the 1st Republic. It cloaks itself under the name of Republic, but isn't one itself. It's an evil country ran by evil people. The only difference is that Americans get to chose the Emperor every 4 years, whilst knowing no matter who is in charge, very little will change. Of course its people aren't inherently evil or anything. But the propaganda is intense and permanent, so Americans unfortunately behave like little emperors themselves. This applies to most of Europe too, naturally. That's why sometimes, I wish to pray to a higher power to spread class consciousness to the whole masses of America and Europe, but am also aware I'm part of the issue, and that it's wishful thinking.
- slt2021 1y ago
  China "occupies" Tibet to the same degree that USA occupies California Republic, or Texas Republic. The fact that this meme stil lives in western mind just shows how pathetic and detached from reality is western anti-CCP propaganda. Propaganda should contain truth, to be credible, otherwise it ceased to be effective
  - leereeves 1y ago
    > China "occupies" Tibet to the same degree that USA occupies California Republic, or Texas Republic. You've got some facts wrong. The "California Republic" was a tiny rebellion against Mexico whose goal was to join the US. The Texas Republic also asked to join the US (and was turned down the first time). But if your point is that the US is as much an empire as China, I agree.
    - slt2021 1y ago
      I mean, just literally if you run a poll among United Nations members, people would rate the statement like "China occupies Tibet" and "USA occupies Texas" as the same delusional things - fantasy detached from reality
      - leereeves 1y ago
        What are you basing that statement on? Was there are actually a UN vote, or are you just BSing?
        slt2021 1y ago
        did UN recognize tibet as occupied country or are you bsing?
- ashoeafoot 1y ago
  Xinjiang and the uighurs?
thworp 1y ago
There is Tibet, which had declared independence in 1913 and then decisively split itself from China by expelling all Chinese in 1945. The PRC conquered them because they were part of the Chinese "motherland". You can argue that the communist were the lesser of two evils (I would agree), but you can't argue this wasn't an imperial conquest. The situation in the rest of China is a lot more complex. Most of warlords joined the PRC (sometimes through negotiation, mostly through surrender) when it was clear that the ROC - the competing but less centralized imperial power - had lost. The program of Han settlement, Sinicization and ethnic repression that occured in multiple waves (most acute in Xinjiang, Tibet, Inner Mongolia and some areas of SW China) was an imperial project. Externally, there is the Sino-Vietnamese war of 1979. While the reasons for the conflict were multi-faceted, one of them was that Vietnam had broken Cambodia out of the Chinese sphere by deposing the Khmer Rouge. Recently China has been building bases and shaping countries' economies and political systems around the world. Arguably they have already made the Solomon Islands a protectorate and a few African countries are also moving in that direction.
- derelicta 1y ago
  The sino-vietnamese was a ridiculous mistake for the socialist project, that I agree with. But this wasn't an imperial war. When I mentioned modern China, I referred to the PRC, so after (most of its) national reunification. I fail to see how anti-terrorist repression in Xinjiang is akin to any form of imperialism. Otherwise they wouldn't celebrate those cultures on TV and during huge national events. This applies to Mongolia too. If the situation in China was similar to the genocide in Palestine, then those cultures and their people would be suppressed and not supported nor promoted.
  - ashoeafoot 1y ago
    it was.
  - naabb 1y ago
    Isn't it imperalistic to threaten Taiwan with invasion?
  - 1y ago

dttze 1y ago

The US and Japan did awful things to Koreans. Slavery, weaponized rape, bioweapons, and other numerous war crimes. So why are you asking which? Isn’t it obvious?