4 ms·

Sitting in a conference room under pressure after potentially flying out possibly hundreds of miles doesn't test your soft skills in actual day to day work. I'v

Sitting in a conference room under pressure after potentially flying out possibly hundreds of miles doesn't test your soft skills in actual day to day work. I've known many excellent engineers that buckle under that conditional.

motorest 2y ago
> Sitting in a conference room under pressure after potentially flying out possibly hundreds of miles doesn't test your soft skills in actual day to day work. I've known many excellent engineers that buckle under that conditional. You're complaining about the hypothetical effectiveness of concrete hiring practices. You are not rejecting the value and importance of soft skills. Also, the ability to work under pressure is valuable skill. If you have a candidate that fails to perform when being in a room with someone else, I doubt you can argue that that's your hiring decision when other candidates are able to perform in similar circumstances.
- sarchertech 2y ago
  Literally no other industry except for the performing arts interviews like this. No one else expects senior people to perform “work samples” under pressure, they just talk to them and dig into past work. All of the really damaging hires, I’ve seen in the last couple decades have been engineers with high negative productivity who were great at passing high pressure technical interviews. Also in a couple decades working everywhere from startups to big tech companies in staff+ roles, I have never experienced anything even remotely similar to a performative technical interview. Even when everything is on fire, it’s not even close to the same thing.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    I’ve always wondered: is there a LeetCode equivalent for doctors? When a hospital interviews a surgeon, do they roll out a cadaver and ask them to remove the gall bladder in 15 minutes while the interviewer scrutinizes how they hold the scalpel?
    - Apocryphon 2y ago
      It’s because medicine, with its residencies and HN-mocked credentialism, is closer to traditional craftsmanship and the progression of apprentice-journeyman-master than the “every hacker for themselves” world of modern tech.
      - re-thc 2y ago
        > is closer to traditional craftsmanship and the progression of apprentice-journeyman-master than the “every hacker for themselves”. Let's fix the real problem then? Why can't tech be like this?
        motorest 2y ago
        > Let's fix the real problem then? Why can't tech be like this? Why should it? What problems would they solve? Are you so afraid of competing with those who might not get a certiciation?
        Apocryphon 2y ago
        Well, it'd be nice if they reintroduced proper training of new tech workers, rather than outsourcing it to universities ("not supposed to be trade schools") or relying on internships/co-ops which these days are often nearly as competitive to be hired for as actual jobs. Formalized apprenticeships could help with that, as well as impart a proper culture of craftsmanship. And as far as certs go, just having a simple one for algorithms/data structures can seriously fix the issue of having to go through the Leetcode gauntlet at every single place one interviews at. A certificate for that class of questions would go a long way towards smoothing the existing interview process. DRY, anyone?
        re-thc 2y ago
        > Why should it? What problems would they solve? We clearly do have a problem. No 1 learns from past mistakes. We keep reinventing the wheel e.g. the land of NodeJs, Javascript, etc. Even within companies there's no learnings passed down. Each new hire thinks they're the best and tries to redo it all. > Are you so afraid of competing with those who might not get a certiciation? I rather compete on certification than compete on leet code. Do you miss the point that the whole leet code system has nothing to do with any job? At least certification might be slightly be relevant.
  - lores 2y ago
    I remember reading an article linked here (which I can't find anymore) about a lawyer who converted to software engineering. He was contrasting tech interviews, with 3, 4, 6 rounds* and live coding and high-pressure testing with the exactly one deep chat for a lawyer about to handle multi-hundred-million dollars lawsuits. Insanity. * special demerits to Canonical
  - motorest 2y ago
    > Literally no other industry except for the performing arts interviews like this. No, not really. Take for example FANGs. Their hiring process is notorious for culminating with an on-site interview, where 4 or more interviewers grill you on all topics they find relevant. Some FANGs are also very clear that their hiring process focuses particularly on soft-skills. Where in the world do hope to find an engineering job where you are not evaluated on soft skills and cultural fit?
    - sarchertech 2y ago
      You’re comment was talking about performing under pressure and failing to perform with people watching them. In this context when you say perform I assumed (as would most people) that you’re talking about technical/work sample interviews not culture fit tell me about a time you did x interviews. If you’re talking about those, then yes every job in every industry does that. If you’re talking about stand at this white board and solve a problem that I know the answer to to while I watch. No one outside of software engineering does this for anyone but new grads.
      - motorest 2y ago
        > If you’re talking about those, then yes every job in every industry does that. If you’re talking about stand at this white board and solve a problem that I know the answer to to while I watch. I think you're failing to understand what actually happens in hiring rounds. You stand in front of a whiteboard to showcase your knowledge on abstract topics like systems architecture. This is exactly what happens in the real world in design rounds. I lost count of the amount of time I spent in front of a whiteboard this year alone. Perhaps you don't work with systems architecture, but if you are applying for a position where in the very least you are expected to have a cursory understanding of systems architecture, you are obviously expected to showcase your skills to help hiring managers compare you with other applicants. And no. The point of whiteboards is not to solve problems. Their point is to help you present and clarify your thoughts in a dialogue with people in the room. It's a communication tool.
        2y ago
- fzeroracer 2y ago
  > Also, the ability to work under pressure is valuable skill. If you have a candidate that fails to perform when being in a room with someone else, I doubt you can argue that that's your hiring decision when other candidates are able to perform in similar circumstances. I'm curious, as a software engineer when was the last time you've seriously worked under pressure? Like, 'do this thing now or you're fired/the company goes under' and so forth? The kind of snap pressure that interviews can push on you. I haven't been under significant pressure in the past 10 or so years of software engineering. Not when on live ops diagnosing why our server is failing to work in prod, not when identifying critical client crashes.
  - motorest 2y ago
    > I'm curious, as a software engineer when was the last time you've seriously worked under pressure? Jetbrain's 2023 Developers’ Lifestyles survey states that around 29% of all developers work on weekends for work. Having to work weekends is the last resort when working under pressure. Nearly 1/3 of all developers claim they are at that stage. No other profession has the concept of "crunch time". https://www.jetbrains.com/lp/devecosystem-2023/lifestyle/ https://www.jetbrains.com/lp/devecosystem-2023/lifestyle/
    - fzeroracer 2y ago
      I asked you, specifically. I'll bite anyways, but I'll expect an actual answer from you. > Having to work weekends is the last resort when working under pressure No, it's not. I've had to work weekends before. We had a live ops rotation that would occur roughly once every eight weeks or so for me. The times I've had to work on the weekend were due to needing to solve some prod bug that was causing relatively minor headaches but they wanted some triage and solutions in earlier as possible. This was not a 'you are fired if you fail to solve the bug issue' or a thing where management is breathing down my neck to fix it because they're all busy sleeping on the weekend while I'm tanking the call. It's often the result of either shitty management or people that cannot log off. > No other profession has the concept of "crunch time". Crunch time is a vastly different kind of pressure. I would know, I've worked in professional game development. And again, it's often the result of shitty management. If a game is going to fail and management is forcing you to work long hours in order to fix it then it's time to walk away.

motorest 2y ago

> Sitting in a conference room under pressure after potentially flying out possibly hundreds of miles doesn't test your soft skills in actual day to day work. I've known many excellent engineers that buckle under that conditional. You're complaining about the hypothetical effectiveness of concrete hiring practices. You are not rejecting the value and importance of soft skills. Also, the ability to work under pressure is valuable skill. If you have a candidate that fails to perform when being in a room with someone else, I doubt you can argue that that's your hiring decision when other candidates are able to perform in similar circumstances.

sarchertech 2y ago
Literally no other industry except for the performing arts interviews like this. No one else expects senior people to perform “work samples” under pressure, they just talk to them and dig into past work. All of the really damaging hires, I’ve seen in the last couple decades have been engineers with high negative productivity who were great at passing high pressure technical interviews. Also in a couple decades working everywhere from startups to big tech companies in staff+ roles, I have never experienced anything even remotely similar to a performative technical interview. Even when everything is on fire, it’s not even close to the same thing.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  I’ve always wondered: is there a LeetCode equivalent for doctors? When a hospital interviews a surgeon, do they roll out a cadaver and ask them to remove the gall bladder in 15 minutes while the interviewer scrutinizes how they hold the scalpel?
  - Apocryphon 2y ago
    It’s because medicine, with its residencies and HN-mocked credentialism, is closer to traditional craftsmanship and the progression of apprentice-journeyman-master than the “every hacker for themselves” world of modern tech.
    - re-thc 2y ago
      > is closer to traditional craftsmanship and the progression of apprentice-journeyman-master than the “every hacker for themselves”. Let's fix the real problem then? Why can't tech be like this?
      - motorest 2y ago
        > Let's fix the real problem then? Why can't tech be like this? Why should it? What problems would they solve? Are you so afraid of competing with those who might not get a certiciation?
        Apocryphon 2y ago
        Well, it'd be nice if they reintroduced proper training of new tech workers, rather than outsourcing it to universities ("not supposed to be trade schools") or relying on internships/co-ops which these days are often nearly as competitive to be hired for as actual jobs. Formalized apprenticeships could help with that, as well as impart a proper culture of craftsmanship. And as far as certs go, just having a simple one for algorithms/data structures can seriously fix the issue of having to go through the Leetcode gauntlet at every single place one interviews at. A certificate for that class of questions would go a long way towards smoothing the existing interview process. DRY, anyone?
        re-thc 2y ago
        > Why should it? What problems would they solve? We clearly do have a problem. No 1 learns from past mistakes. We keep reinventing the wheel e.g. the land of NodeJs, Javascript, etc. Even within companies there's no learnings passed down. Each new hire thinks they're the best and tries to redo it all. > Are you so afraid of competing with those who might not get a certiciation? I rather compete on certification than compete on leet code. Do you miss the point that the whole leet code system has nothing to do with any job? At least certification might be slightly be relevant.
- lores 2y ago
  I remember reading an article linked here (which I can't find anymore) about a lawyer who converted to software engineering. He was contrasting tech interviews, with 3, 4, 6 rounds* and live coding and high-pressure testing with the exactly one deep chat for a lawyer about to handle multi-hundred-million dollars lawsuits. Insanity. * special demerits to Canonical
- motorest 2y ago
  > Literally no other industry except for the performing arts interviews like this. No, not really. Take for example FANGs. Their hiring process is notorious for culminating with an on-site interview, where 4 or more interviewers grill you on all topics they find relevant. Some FANGs are also very clear that their hiring process focuses particularly on soft-skills. Where in the world do hope to find an engineering job where you are not evaluated on soft skills and cultural fit?
  - sarchertech 2y ago
    You’re comment was talking about performing under pressure and failing to perform with people watching them. In this context when you say perform I assumed (as would most people) that you’re talking about technical/work sample interviews not culture fit tell me about a time you did x interviews. If you’re talking about those, then yes every job in every industry does that. If you’re talking about stand at this white board and solve a problem that I know the answer to to while I watch. No one outside of software engineering does this for anyone but new grads.
    - motorest 2y ago
      > If you’re talking about those, then yes every job in every industry does that. If you’re talking about stand at this white board and solve a problem that I know the answer to to while I watch. I think you're failing to understand what actually happens in hiring rounds. You stand in front of a whiteboard to showcase your knowledge on abstract topics like systems architecture. This is exactly what happens in the real world in design rounds. I lost count of the amount of time I spent in front of a whiteboard this year alone. Perhaps you don't work with systems architecture, but if you are applying for a position where in the very least you are expected to have a cursory understanding of systems architecture, you are obviously expected to showcase your skills to help hiring managers compare you with other applicants. And no. The point of whiteboards is not to solve problems. Their point is to help you present and clarify your thoughts in a dialogue with people in the room. It's a communication tool.
      - 2y ago
fzeroracer 2y ago
> Also, the ability to work under pressure is valuable skill. If you have a candidate that fails to perform when being in a room with someone else, I doubt you can argue that that's your hiring decision when other candidates are able to perform in similar circumstances. I'm curious, as a software engineer when was the last time you've seriously worked under pressure? Like, 'do this thing now or you're fired/the company goes under' and so forth? The kind of snap pressure that interviews can push on you. I haven't been under significant pressure in the past 10 or so years of software engineering. Not when on live ops diagnosing why our server is failing to work in prod, not when identifying critical client crashes.
- motorest 2y ago
  > I'm curious, as a software engineer when was the last time you've seriously worked under pressure? Jetbrain's 2023 Developers’ Lifestyles survey states that around 29% of all developers work on weekends for work. Having to work weekends is the last resort when working under pressure. Nearly 1/3 of all developers claim they are at that stage. No other profession has the concept of "crunch time". https://www.jetbrains.com/lp/devecosystem-2023/lifestyle/ https://www.jetbrains.com/lp/devecosystem-2023/lifestyle/
  - fzeroracer 2y ago
    I asked you, specifically. I'll bite anyways, but I'll expect an actual answer from you. > Having to work weekends is the last resort when working under pressure No, it's not. I've had to work weekends before. We had a live ops rotation that would occur roughly once every eight weeks or so for me. The times I've had to work on the weekend were due to needing to solve some prod bug that was causing relatively minor headaches but they wanted some triage and solutions in earlier as possible. This was not a 'you are fired if you fail to solve the bug issue' or a thing where management is breathing down my neck to fix it because they're all busy sleeping on the weekend while I'm tanking the call. It's often the result of either shitty management or people that cannot log off. > No other profession has the concept of "crunch time". Crunch time is a vastly different kind of pressure. I would know, I've worked in professional game development. And again, it's often the result of shitty management. If a game is going to fail and management is forcing you to work long hours in order to fix it then it's time to walk away.