5 ms·

It's simple, the labour cost for repair is lower than the replacement cost, we also have people scavenging for valuables in landfills. As/When India will become

It's simple, the labour cost for repair is lower than the replacement cost, we also have people scavenging for valuables in landfills. As/When India will become rich enough, this will become uneconomical. Long term solution is to force companies to build products with repairability in mind.

ryandrake 2y ago
Companies should have to bear the full cost of cleaning up, repairing, or disposing the products they unleash upon the world. If I have to throw away my laptop because it broke, Lenovo should pay the cost of disposing (or repairing) it and bringing the environment back to the condition it was in before the product existed. When my car dies, Toyota should have to tow it away, part it out and reuse what it can. We've somehow normalized the idea that companies can just externalize these real disposal costs onto the public and environment.
- meta_ai_x 2y ago
  what about people who don't care for the products they own. Why should it be Toyota's responsibility for lazy people who don't even do basic maintenance?
  - lompad 2y ago
    Pretty much every product becomes trash at some point, maintenance only changes the timescale. Something somewhat similar is already law in germany and works rather well. There is no reason society should have to pay for expected costs for disposing a company's products - as this would only incentivize companies to care even less about the difficulty of recycling/disposal.
- sidkshatriya 2y ago
  This is a fair and valid view of looking at things. Though the trick is to not get too heavy handed. At what point does regulation become too stifling ? The American way is to possibly put too few responsibilities on manufacturers. The European way seems to be to saddle them with just too many regulations -- possibly killing so much innovation. One way to approach this would be to put more responsibilities on large established companies and less on smaller companies. But then the problem is that larger companies will want to arbitrage this somehow by indirectly "owning" these smaller companies with less environmental responsibilities. This area is far more complex than we think it is. Also what do we do about totally new materials that are thought to be benign when introduced but then are proved to have harmful effects many years later. Does the company that introduced them now have huge open ended costs and now go bankrupt ? The solution is as always in the middle ground. Society as a whole bears some cost of cleanup (a kind of insurance policy for all companies) and companies bear some of costs.
  - magicalhippo 2y ago
    Here in Norway, electrical and electronic (EE) goods are taxed extra and that money goes to recycling and cleanup[1]. Importers and producers are required to be a member of a approved company handling returns, like RENAS[2]. Shops selling EE goods are required to accept returned EE goods from individuals of the type they sell. So if you sell fridges you have to take my old fridge and handle it in accordance with the rules. Seems to work better than nothing, though how well I don't know. As with all such regulations there's money to be made by skipping steps, and some do[3]. [1]: https://www.miljodirektoratet.no/ansvarsomrader/avfall/Returordninger-avfall/Elektronisk-og-elektrisk-avfall/ https://www.miljodirektoratet.no/ansvarsomrader/avfall/Retur... [2]: https://renas.no/ https://renas.no/ [3]: https://www.miljodirektoratet.no/publikasjoner/2022/februar/oppsummering-av-resultater-fra-tilsynsaksjon-behandlingsanlegg-som-handterer-ee-avfall/ https://www.miljodirektoratet.no/publikasjoner/2022/februar/...
    - fakedang 2y ago
      > The American way is to possibly put too few responsibilities on manufacturers. The European way seems to be to saddle them with just too many regulations -- possibly killing so much innovation Well that's what the European way is lol. Tax and regulate instead of focusing on the crux of the problem, which is overproduction and planned obsolescence. Any solution that uses taxes and extra charges will simply pass the costs onto the consumer. I like the idea of putting the onus on companies to get rid of the product, but there should be a consumer onus too. Consumers should be discouraged from tossing everything to the landfill, and companies should be forced to collect the stuff they product after the lifecycle is complete. This might even drive the companies to revise their designs to use more recyclable materials.
      - sidkshatriya 2y ago
        A good way to penalize planned obsolescence would be to charge a decreasing penalty if the goods are recycled/disposed earlier. So if I return the fridge for recycling after a couple of years (bad fridge) then the company gets charged automatically 5% of the fridge cost. If I recycle after 10 years then the company gets charged zero (as an example). Maybe instead of a charge this could be a credit. If the recycling happens after a long time the company gets a bigger payback than if it happens before. The money is collected on checkout so the company can't claim bankruptcy or low profits to make the payment.
- daedrdev 2y ago
  There are plenty of products where recycling will never make sense, as it's literally worse for the environment to try and recycle it. And for disposal modern landfills in rich countries are very good at avoiding environmental problems.
  - vlz 2y ago
    > literally worse for the environment to try and recycle it For example? What products do you mean?
    - lproven 2y ago
      Basically anything plastic. Plastics recycling is a scam. Glass recycles well, if colours are kept separated. Aluminium and iron and most pure or semi-pure metals too. Far better to wash and reuse, of course, as was still the rule when I was a child, and in some of Scandinavia even 25Y ago.
- forgotoldacc 2y ago
  Making the company responsible for the entire lifetime of a product also makes them effectively own the product. Your idea sounds a lot like renting from the producer.
  - HappMacDonald 2y ago
    Said responsibility can remain the choice of the consumer: producer must accept repair/replacement if consumer brings it back to them, but consumer is not forced to bring it back to them if anything goes wrong. Consumer may also choose to self-repair, sell, etc. Perhaps consumer must bring it back to dispose of it though, as nobody benefits from hucking it directly into a landfill. The other difference between "renting" from the producer is that the producer isn't collecting any rent, only initial purchase.. and that producer cannot claim the item back whenever they please.
    - sadeshmukh 2y ago
      So renting, but with only the negative parts for the company
- nottorp 2y ago
  > If I have to throw away my laptop because it broke Actually you should be able to bring it to one of the multiple 3rd party repair shops of your choice, get it fixed and not have Lenovo involved at all, except maybe by selling you parts at a reasonable price. Incidentally you should also be able to modify the laptop as you want, or if you lack the skills, pay said 3rd party repair shops to do it for you.
  - jdietrich 2y ago
    >Actually you should be able to bring it to one of the multiple 3rd party repair shops of your choice, get it fixed and not have Lenovo involved at all, except maybe by selling you parts at a reasonable price. You already can, it's just often not economically viable in high-income countries. Lenovo have a very comprehensive parts service and provide useful service manuals. Ironically, Apple devices are the most widely repaired by third-party specialists despite Apple's strenuous efforts to make that difficult, because they're expensive and depreciate slowly.
    - nottorp 2y ago
      Yeah, it's wrong to name names, except maybe Apple for assholery. This should go for any brand. > You already can, it's just often not economically viable in high-income countries. But are we sure it's only because of high labor costs?
      - jdietrich 2y ago
        As someone who is adept at electronic repair, I am absolutely certain that it's overwhelmingly because of high labour costs. I fix my own stuff for the fun of it, but there's no way I'd do it for a living because there are just much better uses of those skills in the modern economy. Just look at the prices for old electronics on eBay or Facebook Marketplace - unless the item is very recent, repair doesn't offer good value to the owner or a viable margin for a recycler. People used to darn holes in their socks, but that's an eccentric hobby in a world where you can buy perfectly good socks for less than $1 a pair. It's still a factor in the developing world. Those awful scenes of e-waste being melted down for scrap in open pits are symptomatic of the fact that a lot of devices just aren't worth fixing or dismantling for spare parts, even at third-world labour rates. Manufacturing is heavily automated, which is the reason why you can buy a toaster or a clock radio for less than $10; without massive advances in robotics and AI, the only similarly automated end-of-life solution for those items involves a shredder and a furnace. Here in the EU, the manufacturer is responsible for bearing the end-of-life costs for electronic devices, but it doesn't really change the economics.
- perryizgr8 2y ago
  > Companies should have to bear the full cost of cleaning up So the end users, got it.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  > Companies should have to bear the full cost of cleaning up, repairing, or disposing the products they unleash upon the world. Where I live, you pay a "removal fee" when buying electronics or appliances for just that. If you're buying a new washing machine for example, the party delivering your device is obligated to take the old one with them. Of course, that's only part of it, your country also needs to have good waste processing and ideally not export it.
  - rishav_sharan 2y ago
    That's an interesting law. which country is that? I would love to know more about it.
    - dghlsakjg 2y ago
      I don't know where he is from, but we have something very similar here in BC, Canada. It covers mostly electronics, but we also have a large appliance program which is similar. Basically you just drop them off at your local recycling center, and they have a program that ensures they go to an audited recycler. There is a small fee when you buy electronics that pays for the program. https://www.recyclemy-assets.com/1738262511-epra_bc_obligated_products_definitions_ehfs_february_2025.pdf https://www.recyclemy-assets.com/1738262511-epra_bc_obligate...
  - iszomer 2y ago
    I'd opt for an unconditional bootloader unlock on subsidized devices long EOL to save my electronics from obsolescence.
- catmanjan 2y ago
  Companies never bear any costs, their customers do
- pjc50 2y ago
  > Companies should have to bear the full cost of cleaning up, repairing, or disposing the products they unleash upon the world Boy have I got a WEEE for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electronic_Equipment_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electroni... More broadly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Dot_(symbol) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Dot_(symbol) (however, both of those schemes don't put everything back directly - which would be inefficient. They allow delegation by paying recyclers. This can result in "carbon offset" like shenanigans.)
- dghlsakjg 2y ago
  Most places in North America people will pay you to take your old dead car away. They strip the useful parts, and send the rest for metal recycling. Why does Toyota need to get involved if there is already a multi-billion dollar salvage industry doing what you already propose with no obligation? My last car I was paid ~$200 and that was low because I had them tow it from my home.
throw844849 2y ago
[flagged]
- midnightclubbed 2y ago
  I know you are making a flippant and pointless comment, but I’m compelled to respond. Of all the laptops I’ve owned my 2020 MacBook Air is still my personal daily driver, my 2010 Mac mini still works fine for running my 3d printer, my 2014 Mac mini works great for crafting and my 2020 iPhone SE2 is still getting OS updates and is sending this message. Are they repairable? Not easily. Do they still work, absolutely. Having used a bunch of non apple laptops and devices at home and work I would say the Apple products last at least 2x as long before breaking or hitting enforced obsolescence.
  - throw828288 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - trinix912 2y ago
      > It may even have more than 8GB of ram I have two 2013 MacBooks - an Air with 8GB of RAM and a Pro with 16GB. I use them daily. Both work way smoother (with outdated software even) than my friends' few years old Windows 11 laptops. You'd be surprised how much you can get done on that 8GB when the OS isn't using half of it for the News Sidebar Webview and Windows Update/Telemetry services. Also, the keyboards are both fully functional -- that is, after 12 years of daily coding on them. I didn't buy extended warranty, and the laptops have survived some wild stuff. Where I do agree with you is that the newer ones seem to be of worse build quality. But overall? Pretty damn decent devices.
  - randunel 2y ago
    I'm pretty sure you'll find individual Tesla owners who haven't yet had any issues, but their poor track record in terms of reliability and repairability remain. Stop encouraging companies who lock you out, stop renting products you should fully own! Locking things down is simply a hidden subscription in the shape of repairs and replacements. When you stop paying the subscription (stop repairing, stop upgrading), that's also approximately when the rental stops working (car, iphone, etc). I'm sure the percentage of broken to working devices is a carefully monitored R&D output, to maximise profit and retain customer trust from renters such as yourself.
goku12 2y ago
Please don't define everything in India in terms of poverty. It gives the impression that anything good in India happens only because of economic concerns. But that isn't entirely true. Let's not undermine the recognition of those who do it as a social responsibility. I'm personally acquainted with a rather successful engineer and businessman who does it because he believes in sustainability. His reworked Thinkpads are very popular among the tech community here - not because they're cheap, but because of his workmanship and configurability (it even comes with coreboot). And none of those customers are incapable of affording high-end laptops either - many are FOSS contributors when they're not at their full-time jobs.

ryandrake 2y ago

Companies should have to bear the full cost of cleaning up, repairing, or disposing the products they unleash upon the world. If I have to throw away my laptop because it broke, Lenovo should pay the cost of disposing (or repairing) it and bringing the environment back to the condition it was in before the product existed. When my car dies, Toyota should have to tow it away, part it out and reuse what it can. We've somehow normalized the idea that companies can just externalize these real disposal costs onto the public and environment.

meta_ai_x 2y ago
what about people who don't care for the products they own. Why should it be Toyota's responsibility for lazy people who don't even do basic maintenance?
- lompad 2y ago
  Pretty much every product becomes trash at some point, maintenance only changes the timescale. Something somewhat similar is already law in germany and works rather well. There is no reason society should have to pay for expected costs for disposing a company's products - as this would only incentivize companies to care even less about the difficulty of recycling/disposal.
sidkshatriya 2y ago
This is a fair and valid view of looking at things. Though the trick is to not get too heavy handed. At what point does regulation become too stifling ? The American way is to possibly put too few responsibilities on manufacturers. The European way seems to be to saddle them with just too many regulations -- possibly killing so much innovation. One way to approach this would be to put more responsibilities on large established companies and less on smaller companies. But then the problem is that larger companies will want to arbitrage this somehow by indirectly "owning" these smaller companies with less environmental responsibilities. This area is far more complex than we think it is. Also what do we do about totally new materials that are thought to be benign when introduced but then are proved to have harmful effects many years later. Does the company that introduced them now have huge open ended costs and now go bankrupt ? The solution is as always in the middle ground. Society as a whole bears some cost of cleanup (a kind of insurance policy for all companies) and companies bear some of costs.
- magicalhippo 2y ago
  Here in Norway, electrical and electronic (EE) goods are taxed extra and that money goes to recycling and cleanup[1]. Importers and producers are required to be a member of a approved company handling returns, like RENAS[2]. Shops selling EE goods are required to accept returned EE goods from individuals of the type they sell. So if you sell fridges you have to take my old fridge and handle it in accordance with the rules. Seems to work better than nothing, though how well I don't know. As with all such regulations there's money to be made by skipping steps, and some do[3]. [1]: https://www.miljodirektoratet.no/ansvarsomrader/avfall/Returordninger-avfall/Elektronisk-og-elektrisk-avfall/ https://www.miljodirektoratet.no/ansvarsomrader/avfall/Retur... [2]: https://renas.no/ https://renas.no/ [3]: https://www.miljodirektoratet.no/publikasjoner/2022/februar/oppsummering-av-resultater-fra-tilsynsaksjon-behandlingsanlegg-som-handterer-ee-avfall/ https://www.miljodirektoratet.no/publikasjoner/2022/februar/...
  - fakedang 2y ago
    > The American way is to possibly put too few responsibilities on manufacturers. The European way seems to be to saddle them with just too many regulations -- possibly killing so much innovation Well that's what the European way is lol. Tax and regulate instead of focusing on the crux of the problem, which is overproduction and planned obsolescence. Any solution that uses taxes and extra charges will simply pass the costs onto the consumer. I like the idea of putting the onus on companies to get rid of the product, but there should be a consumer onus too. Consumers should be discouraged from tossing everything to the landfill, and companies should be forced to collect the stuff they product after the lifecycle is complete. This might even drive the companies to revise their designs to use more recyclable materials.
    - sidkshatriya 2y ago
      A good way to penalize planned obsolescence would be to charge a decreasing penalty if the goods are recycled/disposed earlier. So if I return the fridge for recycling after a couple of years (bad fridge) then the company gets charged automatically 5% of the fridge cost. If I recycle after 10 years then the company gets charged zero (as an example). Maybe instead of a charge this could be a credit. If the recycling happens after a long time the company gets a bigger payback than if it happens before. The money is collected on checkout so the company can't claim bankruptcy or low profits to make the payment.
daedrdev 2y ago
There are plenty of products where recycling will never make sense, as it's literally worse for the environment to try and recycle it. And for disposal modern landfills in rich countries are very good at avoiding environmental problems.
- vlz 2y ago
  > literally worse for the environment to try and recycle it For example? What products do you mean?
  - lproven 2y ago
    Basically anything plastic. Plastics recycling is a scam. Glass recycles well, if colours are kept separated. Aluminium and iron and most pure or semi-pure metals too. Far better to wash and reuse, of course, as was still the rule when I was a child, and in some of Scandinavia even 25Y ago.
forgotoldacc 2y ago
Making the company responsible for the entire lifetime of a product also makes them effectively own the product. Your idea sounds a lot like renting from the producer.
- HappMacDonald 2y ago
  Said responsibility can remain the choice of the consumer: producer must accept repair/replacement if consumer brings it back to them, but consumer is not forced to bring it back to them if anything goes wrong. Consumer may also choose to self-repair, sell, etc. Perhaps consumer must bring it back to dispose of it though, as nobody benefits from hucking it directly into a landfill. The other difference between "renting" from the producer is that the producer isn't collecting any rent, only initial purchase.. and that producer cannot claim the item back whenever they please.
  - sadeshmukh 2y ago
    So renting, but with only the negative parts for the company
nottorp 2y ago
> If I have to throw away my laptop because it broke Actually you should be able to bring it to one of the multiple 3rd party repair shops of your choice, get it fixed and not have Lenovo involved at all, except maybe by selling you parts at a reasonable price. Incidentally you should also be able to modify the laptop as you want, or if you lack the skills, pay said 3rd party repair shops to do it for you.
- jdietrich 2y ago
  >Actually you should be able to bring it to one of the multiple 3rd party repair shops of your choice, get it fixed and not have Lenovo involved at all, except maybe by selling you parts at a reasonable price. You already can, it's just often not economically viable in high-income countries. Lenovo have a very comprehensive parts service and provide useful service manuals. Ironically, Apple devices are the most widely repaired by third-party specialists despite Apple's strenuous efforts to make that difficult, because they're expensive and depreciate slowly.
  - nottorp 2y ago
    Yeah, it's wrong to name names, except maybe Apple for assholery. This should go for any brand. > You already can, it's just often not economically viable in high-income countries. But are we sure it's only because of high labor costs?
    - jdietrich 2y ago
      As someone who is adept at electronic repair, I am absolutely certain that it's overwhelmingly because of high labour costs. I fix my own stuff for the fun of it, but there's no way I'd do it for a living because there are just much better uses of those skills in the modern economy. Just look at the prices for old electronics on eBay or Facebook Marketplace - unless the item is very recent, repair doesn't offer good value to the owner or a viable margin for a recycler. People used to darn holes in their socks, but that's an eccentric hobby in a world where you can buy perfectly good socks for less than $1 a pair. It's still a factor in the developing world. Those awful scenes of e-waste being melted down for scrap in open pits are symptomatic of the fact that a lot of devices just aren't worth fixing or dismantling for spare parts, even at third-world labour rates. Manufacturing is heavily automated, which is the reason why you can buy a toaster or a clock radio for less than $10; without massive advances in robotics and AI, the only similarly automated end-of-life solution for those items involves a shredder and a furnace. Here in the EU, the manufacturer is responsible for bearing the end-of-life costs for electronic devices, but it doesn't really change the economics.
perryizgr8 2y ago
> Companies should have to bear the full cost of cleaning up So the end users, got it.
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
> Companies should have to bear the full cost of cleaning up, repairing, or disposing the products they unleash upon the world. Where I live, you pay a "removal fee" when buying electronics or appliances for just that. If you're buying a new washing machine for example, the party delivering your device is obligated to take the old one with them. Of course, that's only part of it, your country also needs to have good waste processing and ideally not export it.
- rishav_sharan 2y ago
  That's an interesting law. which country is that? I would love to know more about it.
  - dghlsakjg 2y ago
    I don't know where he is from, but we have something very similar here in BC, Canada. It covers mostly electronics, but we also have a large appliance program which is similar. Basically you just drop them off at your local recycling center, and they have a program that ensures they go to an audited recycler. There is a small fee when you buy electronics that pays for the program. https://www.recyclemy-assets.com/1738262511-epra_bc_obligated_products_definitions_ehfs_february_2025.pdf https://www.recyclemy-assets.com/1738262511-epra_bc_obligate...
- iszomer 2y ago
  I'd opt for an unconditional bootloader unlock on subsidized devices long EOL to save my electronics from obsolescence.
catmanjan 2y ago
Companies never bear any costs, their customers do
pjc50 2y ago
> Companies should have to bear the full cost of cleaning up, repairing, or disposing the products they unleash upon the world Boy have I got a WEEE for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electronic_Equipment_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electroni... More broadly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Dot_(symbol) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Dot_(symbol) (however, both of those schemes don't put everything back directly - which would be inefficient. They allow delegation by paying recyclers. This can result in "carbon offset" like shenanigans.)
dghlsakjg 2y ago
Most places in North America people will pay you to take your old dead car away. They strip the useful parts, and send the rest for metal recycling. Why does Toyota need to get involved if there is already a multi-billion dollar salvage industry doing what you already propose with no obligation? My last car I was paid ~$200 and that was low because I had them tow it from my home.

throw844849 2y ago

[flagged]

midnightclubbed 2y ago
I know you are making a flippant and pointless comment, but I’m compelled to respond. Of all the laptops I’ve owned my 2020 MacBook Air is still my personal daily driver, my 2010 Mac mini still works fine for running my 3d printer, my 2014 Mac mini works great for crafting and my 2020 iPhone SE2 is still getting OS updates and is sending this message. Are they repairable? Not easily. Do they still work, absolutely. Having used a bunch of non apple laptops and devices at home and work I would say the Apple products last at least 2x as long before breaking or hitting enforced obsolescence.
- throw828288 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - trinix912 2y ago
    > It may even have more than 8GB of ram I have two 2013 MacBooks - an Air with 8GB of RAM and a Pro with 16GB. I use them daily. Both work way smoother (with outdated software even) than my friends' few years old Windows 11 laptops. You'd be surprised how much you can get done on that 8GB when the OS isn't using half of it for the News Sidebar Webview and Windows Update/Telemetry services. Also, the keyboards are both fully functional -- that is, after 12 years of daily coding on them. I didn't buy extended warranty, and the laptops have survived some wild stuff. Where I do agree with you is that the newer ones seem to be of worse build quality. But overall? Pretty damn decent devices.
- randunel 2y ago
  I'm pretty sure you'll find individual Tesla owners who haven't yet had any issues, but their poor track record in terms of reliability and repairability remain. Stop encouraging companies who lock you out, stop renting products you should fully own! Locking things down is simply a hidden subscription in the shape of repairs and replacements. When you stop paying the subscription (stop repairing, stop upgrading), that's also approximately when the rental stops working (car, iphone, etc). I'm sure the percentage of broken to working devices is a carefully monitored R&D output, to maximise profit and retain customer trust from renters such as yourself.

goku12 2y ago

Please don't define everything in India in terms of poverty. It gives the impression that anything good in India happens only because of economic concerns. But that isn't entirely true. Let's not undermine the recognition of those who do it as a social responsibility. I'm personally acquainted with a rather successful engineer and businessman who does it because he believes in sustainability. His reworked Thinkpads are very popular among the tech community here - not because they're cheap, but because of his workmanship and configurability (it even comes with coreboot). And none of those customers are incapable of affording high-end laptops either - many are FOSS contributors when they're not at their full-time jobs.