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You're doing the racist rhetoric. There's no one in north korea that isn't "an agent of the state"? Give me a break. You sound ridiculous.

by tkel 2y ago

Boltgolt 2y ago
There's no one _outside_ north korea
- rurban 2y ago
  Nope, those IT specialists are everywhere. It's tricky to weed out spies, if they are American ("Tell me a bad thing about Donald Trump"), Australians, Chinese, Russian or North Korean. That's why you have recruiters doing background checks.
infecto 2y ago
Is it really racist? North Korea is the most tightly controlled country in the world. Seems too easy to just throw out the racist card when you did not refute or provide any counter point. I am certain there are good people in North Korea but it would be hard to figure folks allegiances. A lifetime of propaganda can really do something to the mind.
- fsloth 2y ago
  I’m not sure what you mean by ‘good’. May I suggest you may have meant ‘there are probably people who in the deepest of their heart disagree with state policy’. If the state can execute your family on a whim because somebody stepped out of line you keep generally those sentiments well hidden. But _liking_ the policies of the state where you live in is generally not considered a vice. So if a person who disagrees with the NK state is ‘good’ this implies people who agree NK state are ‘bad’ and I don’t think that’s the right framework when discussing large populations of nation states.
  - infecto 2y ago
    It’s mostly just a hand-waving acknowledgment that, yes, I’m broadly categorizing everyone as a North Korean state actor. I get that there are gradients of belief, some coerced, some true believers, but in the end, they’re all still acting on behalf of the state, one way or another.
- tkel 2y ago
  "A lifetime of propaganda" about how NK is some nightmare land? The evidentiary standard on reporting goes basically to zero if it's about NK. Outlandish claims are to be taken at face value and not interrogated, because of a "lifetime of propaganda" in the US, since the Korean War. Yes, that is linked with racism. The evidentiary standard in the media on other European countries for example is much much higher. For the most part, the racist narrative follows that places where white people are good and free, and places where non-white people are dangerous and bad. Classic racist rhetoric. With regards to the specific points the article is making: "The FBI reported the money funds nuclear weapons and operations". Is a laughable fearmongering hypcrocrisy. part of Every tax dollar in the US goes towards funding nuclear weapons and operations. But good luck trying to get reporters at Fortune to be self-aware of their hypocrisy. That's the propaganda: bad when they do it. Good or neutral when we do it. Uncritical re-printing of statements from government agents (FBI). A reporter with an evidentiary standard would ask for evidence before printing that. Last I checked there was only one country that has actually used a nuclear weapon. Objectively, I would say that country is far more dangerous.
  - infecto 2y ago
    Oh hush. I have zero tolerance for conspiracies. Yes, every country has its own flavor of nationalism, pride or propaganda but let’s not confuse ourselves and try to sell NK as some misunderstood nation.
    - tkel 2y ago
      Expecting journalists to have evidentiary integrity is now a conspiracy? I didn't say it was false, or that it was true. I'm saying that uncritically reprinting dramatized, political statements from government agents without evidence is propaganda. When they operate in this way, the media acts as a propaganda wing of the government.
      - infecto 2y ago
        Come on. There’s a difference between questioning U.S. foreign policy and pretending North Korea is some misunderstood utopia. You’re right that propaganda exists in the West, but that doesn’t mean every criticism of the DPRK is racist or unexamined. Calling out the regime’s control and the risk posed by state-backed cyber ops isn’t some “classic racist rhetoric”, it’s acknowledging reality. This is a country where you can be executed for watching the wrong movie. Pretending that’s morally equivalent to U.S. hypocrisy is lazy relativism. Yes, the U.S. has done awful things. Yes, our media should be more critical. But no, I’m not going to pretend North Korean IT operatives raising money for a weapons program isn’t a serious issue just because the U.S. also has nukes. That’s not nuance, that’s deflection
- keybored 2y ago
  > I am certain there are good people in North Korea but it would be hard to figure folks allegiances. A lifetime of propaganda can really do something to the mind. What sources have taught you about life in Korea?
  - infecto 2y ago
    Numerous different documentaries and individual travel videos. Like all things there is a bias but I am also not sure what your point is? Are you suggesting North Koreans are not subject to massive amounts of propaganda and indoctrination into this idea of the supreme leader? This is starting to feel like a flat earth discussion.
    - dttze 2y ago
      You’re making broad, sweeping generalizations based off biased videos. If this is a flat earth discussion, you’re the flat earther.
      - infecto 2y ago
        I get it, nuance is hard, but this isn’t nuance, it’s lazy contrarianism. You’re not defending truth, you’re just allergic to anyone speaking plainly about a brutal dictatorship. If you’ve got a credible counterpoint, make it. Otherwise, tossing out “bias” like it’s a trump card isn’t an argument, it’s a dodge.
        dttze 2y ago
        Once again, you made broad generalizations based off some videos you saw (who even knows how biased or truthful they were). You know nothing of NK and yet here you are confidently making statements about it and its people. It is typical western chauvinism and it is embarrassing to read you try to pretend it isn't.
        infecto 2y ago
        Ah, there it is, “Western chauvinism,” the all-purpose dismissal when you’ve got no real counterargument. You’re not engaging with what I said, you’re just performing indignation. Yes, I’ve seen videos, read books, listened to defectors, and followed reports from Amnesty, the UN, and others. You? You’re just here to sneer at the idea that anyone outside North Korea could possibly know anything. That’s not humility, it’s nihilism in a moral disguise. You say I “know nothing” about North Korea. Maybe not everything. But I know enough to not reflexively defend a regime that starves its people while building monuments to a cult of personality. If that makes you uncomfortable, good.
shmerl 2y ago
1984 is a good read. North Korea is somewhere there on thought police levels.
mvdtnz 2y ago
> There's no one in north korea that isn't "an agent of the state"? That's not what he said.
x3n0ph3n3 2y ago
Is it racist if I hire happily hire South Koreans and not North Koreans? Are they a different race? If they are, I'm sure they'd be interested to hear about it.
Tabular-Iceberg 2y ago
If it was racist rhetoric, wouldn’t it necessarily also have to implicate South Koreans as nefarious agents as well, if we’re claiming that being a nefarious agent is an intrinsic feature of the Korean race?
- slt2021 2y ago
  there is no such thing as Korean race, so your whole premise is wrong. NK and SK constitute separate ethno-states (due to different culture, socio-political env, upbringing), despite being very close genetically. It got to the point that each nation's name is different, South Koreans are Hanguk, while North Koreans are Chosun
ashoeafoot 2y ago
Well, they have no choice. Similar to chinese students abroad who discover freedom and then get a video call of the police visiting their parents . Its like s mafia thing, you do not volunteer to that, you are born into that slavery anf you either serve or get broken . Oh, and than there is the tanki left, refusing to acknowledge the problem, helping to undermine dissenters escapeplans by downplaying the problem . The worst are the ones with good intentions refusing the call to horror that is reality .
mjd 2y ago
“North Korean” is not a race. Whatever this is, it's not racism.
- slt2021 2y ago
  its called nationalist chauvinism, which is "racism", but when applied at the ethno-state level, not at the biological race level
EGG_CREAM 2y ago
Where is “racist” even factoring into it? I see this argument all the time, mostly about North Korea or china. There is nothing racist about suspecting someone from a specific country because you don’t trust that country’s government. That is not racist and what’s more I think you know that. It think these arguments are extremely bad faith. Here’s the test: is it about race? If not, then it’s not racist. For example, if I don’t trust Chinese nationals to work at my company because I think they will steal secrets, but I absolutely don’t have that same fear about people who are ethnically Chinese but born in my country, that’s not racist. If you want to call it xenophobic, sure, I’ll buy that. But racist? You are conflating nation and race on purpose.

You're doing the racist rhetoric. There's no one in north korea that isn't "an agent of the state"? Give me a break. You sound ridiculous.

by tkel 2y ago

You're doing the racist rhetoric. There's no one in north korea that isn't "an agent of the state"? Give me a break. You sound ridiculous.

Boltgolt 2y ago

There's no one _outside_ north korea

rurban 2y ago
Nope, those IT specialists are everywhere. It's tricky to weed out spies, if they are American ("Tell me a bad thing about Donald Trump"), Australians, Chinese, Russian or North Korean. That's why you have recruiters doing background checks.

infecto 2y ago

Is it really racist? North Korea is the most tightly controlled country in the world. Seems too easy to just throw out the racist card when you did not refute or provide any counter point. I am certain there are good people in North Korea but it would be hard to figure folks allegiances. A lifetime of propaganda can really do something to the mind.

fsloth 2y ago
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘good’. May I suggest you may have meant ‘there are probably people who in the deepest of their heart disagree with state policy’. If the state can execute your family on a whim because somebody stepped out of line you keep generally those sentiments well hidden. But _liking_ the policies of the state where you live in is generally not considered a vice. So if a person who disagrees with the NK state is ‘good’ this implies people who agree NK state are ‘bad’ and I don’t think that’s the right framework when discussing large populations of nation states.
- infecto 2y ago
  It’s mostly just a hand-waving acknowledgment that, yes, I’m broadly categorizing everyone as a North Korean state actor. I get that there are gradients of belief, some coerced, some true believers, but in the end, they’re all still acting on behalf of the state, one way or another.
tkel 2y ago
"A lifetime of propaganda" about how NK is some nightmare land? The evidentiary standard on reporting goes basically to zero if it's about NK. Outlandish claims are to be taken at face value and not interrogated, because of a "lifetime of propaganda" in the US, since the Korean War. Yes, that is linked with racism. The evidentiary standard in the media on other European countries for example is much much higher. For the most part, the racist narrative follows that places where white people are good and free, and places where non-white people are dangerous and bad. Classic racist rhetoric. With regards to the specific points the article is making: "The FBI reported the money funds nuclear weapons and operations". Is a laughable fearmongering hypcrocrisy. part of Every tax dollar in the US goes towards funding nuclear weapons and operations. But good luck trying to get reporters at Fortune to be self-aware of their hypocrisy. That's the propaganda: bad when they do it. Good or neutral when we do it. Uncritical re-printing of statements from government agents (FBI). A reporter with an evidentiary standard would ask for evidence before printing that. Last I checked there was only one country that has actually used a nuclear weapon. Objectively, I would say that country is far more dangerous.
- infecto 2y ago
  Oh hush. I have zero tolerance for conspiracies. Yes, every country has its own flavor of nationalism, pride or propaganda but let’s not confuse ourselves and try to sell NK as some misunderstood nation.
  - tkel 2y ago
    Expecting journalists to have evidentiary integrity is now a conspiracy? I didn't say it was false, or that it was true. I'm saying that uncritically reprinting dramatized, political statements from government agents without evidence is propaganda. When they operate in this way, the media acts as a propaganda wing of the government.
    - infecto 2y ago
      Come on. There’s a difference between questioning U.S. foreign policy and pretending North Korea is some misunderstood utopia. You’re right that propaganda exists in the West, but that doesn’t mean every criticism of the DPRK is racist or unexamined. Calling out the regime’s control and the risk posed by state-backed cyber ops isn’t some “classic racist rhetoric”, it’s acknowledging reality. This is a country where you can be executed for watching the wrong movie. Pretending that’s morally equivalent to U.S. hypocrisy is lazy relativism. Yes, the U.S. has done awful things. Yes, our media should be more critical. But no, I’m not going to pretend North Korean IT operatives raising money for a weapons program isn’t a serious issue just because the U.S. also has nukes. That’s not nuance, that’s deflection
keybored 2y ago
> I am certain there are good people in North Korea but it would be hard to figure folks allegiances. A lifetime of propaganda can really do something to the mind. What sources have taught you about life in Korea?
- infecto 2y ago
  Numerous different documentaries and individual travel videos. Like all things there is a bias but I am also not sure what your point is? Are you suggesting North Koreans are not subject to massive amounts of propaganda and indoctrination into this idea of the supreme leader? This is starting to feel like a flat earth discussion.
  - dttze 2y ago
    You’re making broad, sweeping generalizations based off biased videos. If this is a flat earth discussion, you’re the flat earther.
    - infecto 2y ago
      I get it, nuance is hard, but this isn’t nuance, it’s lazy contrarianism. You’re not defending truth, you’re just allergic to anyone speaking plainly about a brutal dictatorship. If you’ve got a credible counterpoint, make it. Otherwise, tossing out “bias” like it’s a trump card isn’t an argument, it’s a dodge.
      - dttze 2y ago
        Once again, you made broad generalizations based off some videos you saw (who even knows how biased or truthful they were). You know nothing of NK and yet here you are confidently making statements about it and its people. It is typical western chauvinism and it is embarrassing to read you try to pretend it isn't.
        infecto 2y ago
        Ah, there it is, “Western chauvinism,” the all-purpose dismissal when you’ve got no real counterargument. You’re not engaging with what I said, you’re just performing indignation. Yes, I’ve seen videos, read books, listened to defectors, and followed reports from Amnesty, the UN, and others. You? You’re just here to sneer at the idea that anyone outside North Korea could possibly know anything. That’s not humility, it’s nihilism in a moral disguise. You say I “know nothing” about North Korea. Maybe not everything. But I know enough to not reflexively defend a regime that starves its people while building monuments to a cult of personality. If that makes you uncomfortable, good.

shmerl 2y ago

1984 is a good read. North Korea is somewhere there on thought police levels.

mvdtnz 2y ago

> There's no one in north korea that isn't "an agent of the state"? That's not what he said.

x3n0ph3n3 2y ago

Is it racist if I hire happily hire South Koreans and not North Koreans? Are they a different race? If they are, I'm sure they'd be interested to hear about it.

Tabular-Iceberg 2y ago

If it was racist rhetoric, wouldn’t it necessarily also have to implicate South Koreans as nefarious agents as well, if we’re claiming that being a nefarious agent is an intrinsic feature of the Korean race?

slt2021 2y ago
there is no such thing as Korean race, so your whole premise is wrong. NK and SK constitute separate ethno-states (due to different culture, socio-political env, upbringing), despite being very close genetically. It got to the point that each nation's name is different, South Koreans are Hanguk, while North Koreans are Chosun

ashoeafoot 2y ago

Well, they have no choice. Similar to chinese students abroad who discover freedom and then get a video call of the police visiting their parents . Its like s mafia thing, you do not volunteer to that, you are born into that slavery anf you either serve or get broken . Oh, and than there is the tanki left, refusing to acknowledge the problem, helping to undermine dissenters escapeplans by downplaying the problem . The worst are the ones with good intentions refusing the call to horror that is reality .

mjd 2y ago

“North Korean” is not a race. Whatever this is, it's not racism.

slt2021 2y ago
its called nationalist chauvinism, which is "racism", but when applied at the ethno-state level, not at the biological race level

EGG_CREAM 2y ago

Where is “racist” even factoring into it? I see this argument all the time, mostly about North Korea or china. There is nothing racist about suspecting someone from a specific country because you don’t trust that country’s government. That is not racist and what’s more I think you know that. It think these arguments are extremely bad faith. Here’s the test: is it about race? If not, then it’s not racist. For example, if I don’t trust Chinese nationals to work at my company because I think they will steal secrets, but I absolutely don’t have that same fear about people who are ethnically Chinese but born in my country, that’s not racist. If you want to call it xenophobic, sure, I’ll buy that. But racist? You are conflating nation and race on purpose.