4 ms·

I wonder if there is still enough interest in the app where people will contribute all of the community's desired changes -- I hope there is. I don't get what

by shurane 14y ago

I wonder if there is still enough interest in the app where people will contribute all of the community's desired changes -- I hope there is. I don't get what you mean by "if there is still enough interest". If you wanted a particular feature or change, couldn't you just fork Textmate and then implement it? That's the advantage of it going open-source. We are not at the mercy of some developers who don't think our requests are worthwhile. If I want something on top of my open-source editor of choice, I can just "get up to speed" [1] with the source and go ahead and implement what I want. I do think we rely a little too much on other people to do things that we want for ourselves. If you really want a feature and no one else offers to do it, then you will have to pony up and do the legwork yourself. And that's a good thing. [1] Getting acquainted with the source code doesn't have to be that hard, either. It is a bit of a problem in less-organized projects, but still better than a closed-source base. As a developer, I think this is something more people should be used to. That is, rolling their own solutions when they don't get what they want.

batista 14y ago
>I don't get what you mean by "if there is still enough interest". If you wanted a particular feature or change, couldn't you just fork Textmate and then implement it? No, I could not. 1) I have other things to do than building my own tools. I work creating _stuff_, not creating tools. 2) You assume I have spare time to delve into the code of a project, understand the whole structure and add a feature --which might need tons of changes all around the engine. 3) You assume I can do it. I might not even code in Obj-C/C/Cocoa. I might just be some HTML/Javascript/Python whatever developer.
- sblom 14y ago
  If your effort spent on tools speeds up your time-to-stuff, then the assumptions embodied in 1) are invalid. Besides, with open source you have more than just the original developer on whom you can use cash to entice him to make your favorite changes.
  - batista 14y ago
    >If your effort spent on tools speeds up your time-to-stuff, then the assumptions embodied in 1) are invalid. Effort spent on tools != effort spend on adding some feature I'd like on a programmer's editor. I could just switch to something better. Plus, you probably overestimate how more productive a tool like a programmer's editor makes you. The truth is an editor can make editing less repetitive, but it's not like an order of magnitude better. Not even 2x or 3x more productive. Thing is, there are very successful programmers using all kinds of editors, from Emacs and Vim to Eclipse (notch), to Textmate, to Notepad++. And tons of classic unix programs, including C and Unix itself, were written in ed or similar primitive editors.
    - shurane 14y ago
      I'm going to be a bit pedantic: switching to another editor is also effort spent. Learning how to use Eclipse, IntelliJ, Visual Studio, Vim, Emacs, ed, etc. etc. Some stuff is simple (text input from a keyboard), but they each have their own weird incompatible little worlds.
- anu_gupta 14y ago
  Yes, you could, you just choose not to.
  - nocman 14y ago
    Do you know all about batista's personal life, all his responsibilities, all of his schedule? While it is possible that he could do the work and choses not to, I don't think you have enough information to say that he definitely can do it and choses not to. People have to prioritize their lives, and there is only so much time to go around. I for one have a thousand things I'd like to do, but personal time limits and higher priorities prevent me from doing them. Finite resources cannot be made infinite.
    - anu_gupta 14y ago
      You're getting angry about something that you've imagined I've stated when in fact you agree with me. > People have to prioritize their lives Yes, totally agree. Prioritisation is inherently about making choices - I'm sure you don't disagree with that? Don't conflate not wanting to or being unwilling to do something with impossibility. They're very different.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- pydave 14y ago
  So "enough interest" means someone who's interested enough to overcome those three hurdles.
- shurane 14y ago
  Sorry, I didn't mean to attack you or anything. I'm just praising the model and abilities of open-source and how much power it gives to the user. I'm extending this idea of rolling your own code to anything/everything open-source, not just text editors. If you're playing a game, or using a webapp and there's some feature or pain point you want to add... well now writing it yourself is an option! Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you have to write it because you have a thousand other things to focus on or that the reward/effort ratio isn't worthwhile or whatever reason. But you can. But you can't tell me that having the option to do so isn't so freaking awesome. Would you prefer abandonware instead? Or seeing where Textmate 2 was going (evidently, nowhere) if it wasn't open-sourced?
  - batista 14y ago
    >Sorry, I didn't mean to attack you or anything. Oh, no problem, I didn't get that impression. >I'm just praising the model and abilities of open-source and how much power it gives to the user. Well, what I'm tried to say it that much of this is "potential" power and not actual. It takes a community or at least several interested programmers to actualise it. Else, it's just the same as if the user didn't have the option at all. >But you can't tell me that having the option to do so isn't so freaking awesome. Would you prefer abandonware instead? No, sure, Open Source is better than closed source abandon-ware. Only pointing it that open source can be abandon-ware too (tons of abandoned projects on SourceForge and GitHub -- and not all for lack of interested users, mainly for lack of interested programmers).
    - shurane 14y ago
      Personally, I think that everyone should have some form of programming chops. If only so people can program in the features that they want/need into the software they use. That's why I think programmers as users (that can contribute back!) are so beneficial. Heck, they can even help the lead programmer debug by finding stack traces, culprit lines in code, working on things the author can't make time for, etc. etc. You're right in that it's "potential" power, but I think it's just a matter of time of getting more people into the open-source and contributing mindset. I don't think enough of my coworkers or previous peers from uni respect the power of open-source. They just see open-source software as something... 'fixed'. It's either good, or not. They don't realize that they can easily change it with some determination. On a sidenote, have you read about the "Cathedral and the Bazaar" [1], by Eric S. Raymond? I thought it was quite an eye-opener on the merits of open-source vs the closed-source alternative. [1] http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/rt/printerFriendly/1472/1387 http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/rt...
emehrkay 14y ago
Id have to learn Cocoa/Objective-C, but I agree with you.

by shurane 14y ago

batista 14y ago

>I don't get what you mean by "if there is still enough interest". If you wanted a particular feature or change, couldn't you just fork Textmate and then implement it? No, I could not. 1) I have other things to do than building my own tools. I work creating _stuff_, not creating tools. 2) You assume I have spare time to delve into the code of a project, understand the whole structure and add a feature --which might need tons of changes all around the engine. 3) You assume I can do it. I might not even code in Obj-C/C/Cocoa. I might just be some HTML/Javascript/Python whatever developer.

sblom 14y ago
If your effort spent on tools speeds up your time-to-stuff, then the assumptions embodied in 1) are invalid. Besides, with open source you have more than just the original developer on whom you can use cash to entice him to make your favorite changes.
- batista 14y ago
  >If your effort spent on tools speeds up your time-to-stuff, then the assumptions embodied in 1) are invalid. Effort spent on tools != effort spend on adding some feature I'd like on a programmer's editor. I could just switch to something better. Plus, you probably overestimate how more productive a tool like a programmer's editor makes you. The truth is an editor can make editing less repetitive, but it's not like an order of magnitude better. Not even 2x or 3x more productive. Thing is, there are very successful programmers using all kinds of editors, from Emacs and Vim to Eclipse (notch), to Textmate, to Notepad++. And tons of classic unix programs, including C and Unix itself, were written in ed or similar primitive editors.
  - shurane 14y ago
    I'm going to be a bit pedantic: switching to another editor is also effort spent. Learning how to use Eclipse, IntelliJ, Visual Studio, Vim, Emacs, ed, etc. etc. Some stuff is simple (text input from a keyboard), but they each have their own weird incompatible little worlds.
anu_gupta 14y ago
Yes, you could, you just choose not to.
- nocman 14y ago
  Do you know all about batista's personal life, all his responsibilities, all of his schedule? While it is possible that he could do the work and choses not to, I don't think you have enough information to say that he definitely can do it and choses not to. People have to prioritize their lives, and there is only so much time to go around. I for one have a thousand things I'd like to do, but personal time limits and higher priorities prevent me from doing them. Finite resources cannot be made infinite.
  - anu_gupta 14y ago
    You're getting angry about something that you've imagined I've stated when in fact you agree with me. > People have to prioritize their lives Yes, totally agree. Prioritisation is inherently about making choices - I'm sure you don't disagree with that? Don't conflate not wanting to or being unwilling to do something with impossibility. They're very different.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
pydave 14y ago
So "enough interest" means someone who's interested enough to overcome those three hurdles.
shurane 14y ago
Sorry, I didn't mean to attack you or anything. I'm just praising the model and abilities of open-source and how much power it gives to the user. I'm extending this idea of rolling your own code to anything/everything open-source, not just text editors. If you're playing a game, or using a webapp and there's some feature or pain point you want to add... well now writing it yourself is an option! Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you have to write it because you have a thousand other things to focus on or that the reward/effort ratio isn't worthwhile or whatever reason. But you can. But you can't tell me that having the option to do so isn't so freaking awesome. Would you prefer abandonware instead? Or seeing where Textmate 2 was going (evidently, nowhere) if it wasn't open-sourced?
- batista 14y ago
  >Sorry, I didn't mean to attack you or anything. Oh, no problem, I didn't get that impression. >I'm just praising the model and abilities of open-source and how much power it gives to the user. Well, what I'm tried to say it that much of this is "potential" power and not actual. It takes a community or at least several interested programmers to actualise it. Else, it's just the same as if the user didn't have the option at all. >But you can't tell me that having the option to do so isn't so freaking awesome. Would you prefer abandonware instead? No, sure, Open Source is better than closed source abandon-ware. Only pointing it that open source can be abandon-ware too (tons of abandoned projects on SourceForge and GitHub -- and not all for lack of interested users, mainly for lack of interested programmers).
  - shurane 14y ago
    Personally, I think that everyone should have some form of programming chops. If only so people can program in the features that they want/need into the software they use. That's why I think programmers as users (that can contribute back!) are so beneficial. Heck, they can even help the lead programmer debug by finding stack traces, culprit lines in code, working on things the author can't make time for, etc. etc. You're right in that it's "potential" power, but I think it's just a matter of time of getting more people into the open-source and contributing mindset. I don't think enough of my coworkers or previous peers from uni respect the power of open-source. They just see open-source software as something... 'fixed'. It's either good, or not. They don't realize that they can easily change it with some determination. On a sidenote, have you read about the "Cathedral and the Bazaar" [1], by Eric S. Raymond? I thought it was quite an eye-opener on the merits of open-source vs the closed-source alternative. [1] http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/rt/printerFriendly/1472/1387 http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/rt...

emehrkay 14y ago

Id have to learn Cocoa/Objective-C, but I agree with you.