3 ms·

How old are you? You get to your forties as a software engineer, and you'd realize how taxing this occupation is. Your eyesight may deteriorate; your neck and s

How old are you? You get to your forties as a software engineer, and you'd realize how taxing this occupation is. Your eyesight may deteriorate; your neck and spine may experience chronic pain; you could develop digestive and kidney problems from prolonged immobility; you might get hemorrhoids and carpal tunnel syndrome; your immune system could weaken from constant stress and may cause depression. The number of different "solutions" for solving ergonomics alone is evidence of how difficult a career as a software engineer is, both - mentally and physically.

PhunkyPhil 2y ago
Realistically, do you not think most of these things are largely solvable by a few, intentional changes to your daily routine? 30 minute walk before work, gym after work, outdoor/physical hobbies, intentional healthy eating, etc... These, to me, aren't difficult and end up providing a net benefit on your life far outweighing the effort required to implement them.
- iLemming 2y ago
  Realistically, 30 minutes of walking a day is not enough to offset the long hours of sitting (no matter how great the chair is); standing desks aren't necessarily a better solution here either. Gym and healthy eating are a must, but not everyone can afford them (in terms of time). Anyhow, unlike my non-programmer friends, I can never leave my work - whenever I'm walking my dog, working out, cooking dinner, or taking a shower - I still keep thinking about the things I need to solve, the failing tests, the PR comments, my open-source projects, etc. Yes, I still love my job and wouldn't trade it for anything else. Sure, I'm very happy that I don't have to leave the house at 2AM to risk my life, but still, it isn't really one of "the easiest careers" - I am easily disposable, I don't ever receive a pension, whenever I need to find another gig - I have to go through seven circles of hell, and it never is the same hell to go through, I have too many bosses, I constantly have to keep learning new skills, routinely prove my worth, and defend my opinions, because even after twenty years of building expertise in various areas, in our field of work, one can never confidently call themselves an expert.
  - elderK 2y ago
    I agree with your posts. I've been battling RSI and stuff for the past two years and am starting to make progress although it's required me to get both of my wrists fixed and potentially both of my elbows in the future. It's easy to just say "Oh, do this workout" but it can be very difficult to do that if you either lack the time or have other health issues that prevent you from doing them. For me, I have rods in my legs and fused ankles so even though I try to hit the treadmill regularly, doing so means I wind up in a lot of pain. None of this has got in the way of my passion for building software, although for me there is a distinction between what I do (or want to do) in my own time vs. what I have to do for work. It's a good day when I can really apply myself to a problem at work. It's less great when for whatever reason, I'm prevented from being able to do a good job. And the sad thing is that often, you're not prevented from doing a good job because of any technical or time constraint, it's usually all political. That's the thing that sucks most :)
    - iLemming 2y ago
      Right. I'm not even old, I'm in my prime; I exercise and eat healthily. My working deadlift weight is about 350 pounds. I keep a dumbbell next to my chair, and I use tools like Pomodoro. Whenever I need to take a bathroom break, I also try doing some squats or push-ups. But younger kids seem oblivious to what kind of damage this line of work does to your body, and it's pretty much unavoidable. They'd be "Ah, so what that I've been typing for fourteen hours straight? My knees are fine; I can just walk it off...". Yeah, well, try figuring out your Python dependency conflicts or broken GitHub Actions, or focus on some concurrency bug when your sciatic nerve is pinching or your neck hurts like you received a bullet straight under your shoulder blade. I'll see how they sing their "the easiest job ever" song when they get to experience chronic pain and become nearly incapable of sitting in front of the screen, not even for forty minutes, let alone hours.
  - PhunkyPhil 2y ago
    > whenever I'm walking my dog, working out, cooking dinner, or taking a shower - I still keep thinking about the things I need to solve, the failing tests, the PR comments, my open-source projects, etc. This isn't an axiomatic quality of software engineering though. For every developer with your level of dedication (obsession? anxiety?), how many developers log off at 5 and compartmentalize their work away from their personal life? That being said, your other paragraphs are pretty agreeable to me.
- selfhoster11 2y ago
  Good luck doing all of these if you're already in the hole, then.
anthonypasq 2y ago
ever consider moving your body a couple times a week?
- iLemming 2y ago
  My comment wasn't self-referential, I'm not complaining, I do exercise. Have you noticed the use of terms of possibility and not certainty in my prior comment? I'm just stating the general facts on long-term career of a software engineer.
  - Borg3 2y ago
    Dont listen to those kids. Ive seen a lot of youngsters coming as Software Engineers. They have no skill, no motivation to learn, they just spend a lot of time in coffe talks and get nice paycheck. If they fail, they are being pet and said: no worry, we will find you easier task to do. And then they come to some "oldfart" engineer and ask him to do the thing. I have first hand story where my colegue had a cow-worker like this and wanted to get rid of him.. Took whole year to do so, but NO.. he wasnt fired.. he was promoted!!! But my colegue said: At least, we get rid of him :)
    - iLemming 2y ago
      I think you're shifting the focus to an entirely different matter, and honestly, I'm not sure I can wholeheartedly agree with you. I've seen many young, motivated beginners who performed exceptionally well, even teaching veterans with their fresh perspectives. Experience in our field is a double-edged sword - at times it can feel like a burden that pushes intuition away from the objectives. After all - we're all junior SEs - whenever we need to start a new project - we have to learn or at least refresh our knowledge. Just because a kid fresh from college doesn't know how to use Makefiles, can't write C without memory leaks, or hasn't used Vim keybindings and panics when seeing Emacs, doesn't mean they lack programming talent.
      - Borg3 2y ago
        I agree partially. I worked w/ youngsters that had talent and motivation to learn. Unfortunately, I saw it less and less in places where I worked.. Hence my comment here.. Industry shifted into weird direction here.. Youngsters are pet while old engineers that had knowledge and experience where squeezed more and more... It really makes you demotivated..
Bluescreenbuddy 2y ago
All those things are solvable. If you choose not to take care of your body, it’s going to fall apart
- iLemming 2y ago
  Thank you captain obvious, but that's not what I'm saying. If your vocation involves sitting long hours you already "not taking care of your body" - humans evolved as hunter-gatherers, engaging in regular physical activity - walking, running, and foraging, not sitting all day long. Think about it - we are among a few species with horses, wolves, ostriches and dogs that can run for many miles in a single event - because we evolved to do that. Yet our ability to sit for extremely long durations is very unusual and not evolutionary advantageous. Imagine forcing a wolf to stay motionless and keep the eyes on the artificially lit up screen? The wolf will likely gets depression and dies within a year or two, if not sooner. The human body is designed for movement, and sedentary behavior disrupts metabolic processes, affects posture, and almost unavoidably results in weakened muscles and bones. Staring at screens for extended periods leads to digital eye strain - dryness, irritation, blurred vision, headaches. Prolonged screen time can also disrupt sleep patterns which affects melatonin production. Additionally, it too, contributes to poor posture and musculoskeletal issues, particularly in the neck and shoulders. Typing for long hours leads to repetitive strain injuries - carpal tunnel syndrome, tendonitis, and muscle fatigue in the hands, wrists, and arms. If you think you can undo decades of harm to your body by occasional exercise, well, I have bad news for you. If you think you can just hop around like a butterfly when you need to do something like setting up a Kafka cluster from scratch, which requires you to have a combination of technical skills and extended periods of sedentary work, screen time, and typing - something that can't be done "very quickly and only once," you're thinking of some other profession, not this. Extend that to five days a week, for many years - that's what's required - you'll find yourself primarily sitting, staring at the screen, and typing during most of your waking hours. This is a typical facet of a programmer's life. Software development career WILL harm your body, and there are only limited things you can do about it, and only to the effect of mitigation - there's no magical cure, remedy, or escape.

PhunkyPhil 2y ago

Realistically, do you not think most of these things are largely solvable by a few, intentional changes to your daily routine? 30 minute walk before work, gym after work, outdoor/physical hobbies, intentional healthy eating, etc... These, to me, aren't difficult and end up providing a net benefit on your life far outweighing the effort required to implement them.

iLemming 2y ago
Realistically, 30 minutes of walking a day is not enough to offset the long hours of sitting (no matter how great the chair is); standing desks aren't necessarily a better solution here either. Gym and healthy eating are a must, but not everyone can afford them (in terms of time). Anyhow, unlike my non-programmer friends, I can never leave my work - whenever I'm walking my dog, working out, cooking dinner, or taking a shower - I still keep thinking about the things I need to solve, the failing tests, the PR comments, my open-source projects, etc. Yes, I still love my job and wouldn't trade it for anything else. Sure, I'm very happy that I don't have to leave the house at 2AM to risk my life, but still, it isn't really one of "the easiest careers" - I am easily disposable, I don't ever receive a pension, whenever I need to find another gig - I have to go through seven circles of hell, and it never is the same hell to go through, I have too many bosses, I constantly have to keep learning new skills, routinely prove my worth, and defend my opinions, because even after twenty years of building expertise in various areas, in our field of work, one can never confidently call themselves an expert.
- elderK 2y ago
  I agree with your posts. I've been battling RSI and stuff for the past two years and am starting to make progress although it's required me to get both of my wrists fixed and potentially both of my elbows in the future. It's easy to just say "Oh, do this workout" but it can be very difficult to do that if you either lack the time or have other health issues that prevent you from doing them. For me, I have rods in my legs and fused ankles so even though I try to hit the treadmill regularly, doing so means I wind up in a lot of pain. None of this has got in the way of my passion for building software, although for me there is a distinction between what I do (or want to do) in my own time vs. what I have to do for work. It's a good day when I can really apply myself to a problem at work. It's less great when for whatever reason, I'm prevented from being able to do a good job. And the sad thing is that often, you're not prevented from doing a good job because of any technical or time constraint, it's usually all political. That's the thing that sucks most :)
  - iLemming 2y ago
    Right. I'm not even old, I'm in my prime; I exercise and eat healthily. My working deadlift weight is about 350 pounds. I keep a dumbbell next to my chair, and I use tools like Pomodoro. Whenever I need to take a bathroom break, I also try doing some squats or push-ups. But younger kids seem oblivious to what kind of damage this line of work does to your body, and it's pretty much unavoidable. They'd be "Ah, so what that I've been typing for fourteen hours straight? My knees are fine; I can just walk it off...". Yeah, well, try figuring out your Python dependency conflicts or broken GitHub Actions, or focus on some concurrency bug when your sciatic nerve is pinching or your neck hurts like you received a bullet straight under your shoulder blade. I'll see how they sing their "the easiest job ever" song when they get to experience chronic pain and become nearly incapable of sitting in front of the screen, not even for forty minutes, let alone hours.
- PhunkyPhil 2y ago
  > whenever I'm walking my dog, working out, cooking dinner, or taking a shower - I still keep thinking about the things I need to solve, the failing tests, the PR comments, my open-source projects, etc. This isn't an axiomatic quality of software engineering though. For every developer with your level of dedication (obsession? anxiety?), how many developers log off at 5 and compartmentalize their work away from their personal life? That being said, your other paragraphs are pretty agreeable to me.
selfhoster11 2y ago
Good luck doing all of these if you're already in the hole, then.

anthonypasq 2y ago

ever consider moving your body a couple times a week?

iLemming 2y ago
My comment wasn't self-referential, I'm not complaining, I do exercise. Have you noticed the use of terms of possibility and not certainty in my prior comment? I'm just stating the general facts on long-term career of a software engineer.
- Borg3 2y ago
  Dont listen to those kids. Ive seen a lot of youngsters coming as Software Engineers. They have no skill, no motivation to learn, they just spend a lot of time in coffe talks and get nice paycheck. If they fail, they are being pet and said: no worry, we will find you easier task to do. And then they come to some "oldfart" engineer and ask him to do the thing. I have first hand story where my colegue had a cow-worker like this and wanted to get rid of him.. Took whole year to do so, but NO.. he wasnt fired.. he was promoted!!! But my colegue said: At least, we get rid of him :)
  - iLemming 2y ago
    I think you're shifting the focus to an entirely different matter, and honestly, I'm not sure I can wholeheartedly agree with you. I've seen many young, motivated beginners who performed exceptionally well, even teaching veterans with their fresh perspectives. Experience in our field is a double-edged sword - at times it can feel like a burden that pushes intuition away from the objectives. After all - we're all junior SEs - whenever we need to start a new project - we have to learn or at least refresh our knowledge. Just because a kid fresh from college doesn't know how to use Makefiles, can't write C without memory leaks, or hasn't used Vim keybindings and panics when seeing Emacs, doesn't mean they lack programming talent.
    - Borg3 2y ago
      I agree partially. I worked w/ youngsters that had talent and motivation to learn. Unfortunately, I saw it less and less in places where I worked.. Hence my comment here.. Industry shifted into weird direction here.. Youngsters are pet while old engineers that had knowledge and experience where squeezed more and more... It really makes you demotivated..

Bluescreenbuddy 2y ago

All those things are solvable. If you choose not to take care of your body, it’s going to fall apart

iLemming 2y ago
Thank you captain obvious, but that's not what I'm saying. If your vocation involves sitting long hours you already "not taking care of your body" - humans evolved as hunter-gatherers, engaging in regular physical activity - walking, running, and foraging, not sitting all day long. Think about it - we are among a few species with horses, wolves, ostriches and dogs that can run for many miles in a single event - because we evolved to do that. Yet our ability to sit for extremely long durations is very unusual and not evolutionary advantageous. Imagine forcing a wolf to stay motionless and keep the eyes on the artificially lit up screen? The wolf will likely gets depression and dies within a year or two, if not sooner. The human body is designed for movement, and sedentary behavior disrupts metabolic processes, affects posture, and almost unavoidably results in weakened muscles and bones. Staring at screens for extended periods leads to digital eye strain - dryness, irritation, blurred vision, headaches. Prolonged screen time can also disrupt sleep patterns which affects melatonin production. Additionally, it too, contributes to poor posture and musculoskeletal issues, particularly in the neck and shoulders. Typing for long hours leads to repetitive strain injuries - carpal tunnel syndrome, tendonitis, and muscle fatigue in the hands, wrists, and arms. If you think you can undo decades of harm to your body by occasional exercise, well, I have bad news for you. If you think you can just hop around like a butterfly when you need to do something like setting up a Kafka cluster from scratch, which requires you to have a combination of technical skills and extended periods of sedentary work, screen time, and typing - something that can't be done "very quickly and only once," you're thinking of some other profession, not this. Extend that to five days a week, for many years - that's what's required - you'll find yourself primarily sitting, staring at the screen, and typing during most of your waking hours. This is a typical facet of a programmer's life. Software development career WILL harm your body, and there are only limited things you can do about it, and only to the effect of mitigation - there's no magical cure, remedy, or escape.