4 ms·

When the President of the United States threatens to invade ex-allies, I don't think that the threatened people give a shit about what the American people think

by palata 2y ago

When the President of the United States threatens to invade ex-allies, I don't think that the threatened people give a shit about what the American people think about it. The fact that this guy is the President means that most Americans were not against it, right? Of course most Americans don't want random people detained. But still, this is happening in the US. And one thing that I believe is absolutely clear outside the US (whether it's true or not), is that most Americans are perfectly fine with "America First". Americans don't really care about the impact of Trump on the rest of the world; they care about the impact on themselves. Boycotting US products is a way to impact the American people, in the hope that the American people will eventually realise that what's best for them is also better for the others. Something that I found interesting: when Canadians started booing the US anthem in NHL games, Americans started booing the Canadian anthem. Why? Canada didn't do anything to the US. Does it sound that most Americans are against what's happening, when they defend it? There is this kind of American patriotism where people seem to be like "Yes, my government, is bullying you, but I won't admit it and I will fight against you if you say it. But I'm a good guy, I don't want my government to bully you. I'll just support it because it's my country". So yeah... pretty sure that it feels a lot different from the outside than from the inside.

ivan_gammel 2y ago
> There is this kind of American patriotism Doesn‘t look much different from Russian, Israeli or Chinese patriotism. When outsiders criticize your tribe for doing bad things, many are standing in support of the tribe, not the values, and they are the most visible.
- DeathArrow 2y ago
  Isn't it natural to support your people?
  - palata 2y ago
    Probably, but if your dad starts beating a kid in the street, I hope you'll do something about it. Also for your dad's sake and for your family reputation.
  - ivan_gammel 2y ago
    It is false association. Your government != your people. It is not natural to defend your government regardless of their actions.
- palata 2y ago
  Sure. But when the US threaten to invade an ally militarily, therefore destroying the status of "allies" for the foreseeable future and looking more like enemies, I suppose it's more shocking for those ex-allies than... say... when the US find a bullshit reason to invade Irak.
brookst 2y ago
> most Americans are perfectly fine with "America First". I agree with everything you said, except this. Sub “many” and I’d go with it. But at least here, in blue state / more-sane land, there is widespread horror and outrage. We’re only at the “tens of thousands of people protesting” stage and I’ll be the first to say Americans need to do more, but I think it’s going to far to say most Americans don’t care about the impact elsewhere.
- b112 2y ago
  but I think it’s going to far to say most Americans don’t care about the impact elsewhere. Indeed. Recently in Palo Alto for a few months. Saw lots of people protesting Tesla dealerships, lots of interesting and creative anti-Trump and Elon signs. Not one word of Canada, of Greenland. Trumps stated goal of destroying Canada's economy to force annexation, or to outright just take Greenland seem not protest worthy. Most people I spoke to seemed barely conscious of the issue. To be fair, other matters may be higher pri in their minds, so if other events were not happening in parallel, it may be different. But when 65 billion dollar defence hardware purchases are being dropped (they are), when future military purchases are not going to happen, when police cars, municipal vehicles are not going to be from US companies any more, when natural resources are going to be sold to the EU and China instead (sadly), the US is going to feel this for a very long time. Because these are choices for decades. And it's not only Canada making them.
  - DeathArrow 2y ago
    Why should US citizens deeply care about Canada? It's not their country, they don't live there. Don't tell me Canadians lose sleep thinking about the well being of US.
    - pseudalopex 2y ago
      > Why should US citizens deeply care about Canada? You don't have to deeply care about Canada to oppose annexation threats. > Don't tell me Canadians lose sleep thinking about the well being of US. A Canadian prime minister said Living next to you is in some ways like sleeping with an elephant. No matter how friendly and even-tempered is the beast, if I can call it that, one is affected by every twitch and grunt.[1] [1] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Pierre_Trudeau#1969 https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Pierre_Trudeau#1969
scottLobster 2y ago
"Most" in this case means 49.81% of the vote, with 48.34% voting against. And that's with people largely expecting Trump to behave the same way as last time and a historically unpopular Democratic candidate. Whatever right wing cope you may have read, if the election were held today he'd probably lose. Granted I don't blame foreigners for not risking ICE abuse. And Hockey fans can just be dumb sometimes. A lot of Americans have severe recency bias, the right is saying "the same people telling you this will be catastrophic were the same ones who locked down schools over a cold and told you inflation would be transitory". These people are going to have to touch the stove to learn it's hot, and then they'll admit that it's hot but deny that it's burning them, and then enough at the margins will start to defect such that they start losing elections, leaving a hard-core to endlessly complain about how if they'd only held on until 3rd degree burns the stove would have turned itself off.
- palata 2y ago
  > Whatever right wing cope you may have read I haven't. I am just telling how I believe it is perceived from outside the US. It seems like Americans here find it a bit excessive for tourists to choose not to come to the US "just because of a mistake at the border". I'm trying to say that from the outside, the US is behaving at least like a big bully, sometimes like an enemy. You don't go on vacation in a country that threatens to attack you militarily.
thesuitonym 2y ago
> The fact that this guy is the President means that most Americans were not against it, right? I don't know if that's strictly accurate. United States citizens are some of the most heavily disenfranchised in the western world. Our oligarchs have spent decades making it more difficult to vote, especially for people of color, who overwhelmingly disapprove of the current administration. In some urban areas, it can take hours of standing in line to vote, and we don't get time off from work to do so. We've also had a decades long propaganda campaign telling us our vote doesn't matter. More people didn't vote in the last election than voted for Trump. That's not to say they all would have voted against him, but it's not really the will of the American people.
- mikepurvis 2y ago
  And yet today's polling still shows a 43% approval rating for this president and administration: https://www.yahoo.com/news/donald-trump-approval-rating-now-112153322.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/donald-trump-approval-rating-now-... As a Canadian who normally travels to the US 3-4 times a year, that tells me everything I need to know about what "most Americans" think.
  - neogodless 2y ago
    I don't blame your sentiment, but as part of the 57% that MASSIVELY DISAPPROVES of that nutjob, I don't like the "most" word being used here ;) Try to remember our weird Electoral College, and that ultimately the vote came down to ~230,000 votes in swing states. (I'm in one of them, and I voted against the felon.) Also hate that "mainstream news" like ABC and CBS covered Saturday's protests with the phrase "tens of thousand" while the protest organizations reported MILLIONS of protesters (about 1% of the population.)
    - mikepurvis 2y ago
      I'm not going to split hairs over what 43% means, but the point is that we are still in an ecosystem where "Trump supporter" is a viable political stance and very much has a seat at the table of discourse. That state of affairs is utterly unacceptable, and signals that overwhelmingly the country doesn't get it yet. Look at how many Greenlanders like Trump— those are the numbers you need to be pulling at home. Once 80-90% of the US population agrees that he's not only a bad president but a threat to democracy and a criminal, then we can talk about feeling safe to travel there again.
DeathArrow 2y ago
[flagged]
- palata 2y ago
  Do you live in a cave? The current US president, obviously.
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    They are all over this thread either legitimately insane or clearly operating in bad faith. Flag and move on.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  Minihands. Canada, Greenland, Panama.

by palata 2y ago

ivan_gammel 2y ago

> There is this kind of American patriotism Doesn‘t look much different from Russian, Israeli or Chinese patriotism. When outsiders criticize your tribe for doing bad things, many are standing in support of the tribe, not the values, and they are the most visible.

DeathArrow 2y ago
Isn't it natural to support your people?
- palata 2y ago
  Probably, but if your dad starts beating a kid in the street, I hope you'll do something about it. Also for your dad's sake and for your family reputation.
- ivan_gammel 2y ago
  It is false association. Your government != your people. It is not natural to defend your government regardless of their actions.
palata 2y ago
Sure. But when the US threaten to invade an ally militarily, therefore destroying the status of "allies" for the foreseeable future and looking more like enemies, I suppose it's more shocking for those ex-allies than... say... when the US find a bullshit reason to invade Irak.

brookst 2y ago

> most Americans are perfectly fine with "America First". I agree with everything you said, except this. Sub “many” and I’d go with it. But at least here, in blue state / more-sane land, there is widespread horror and outrage. We’re only at the “tens of thousands of people protesting” stage and I’ll be the first to say Americans need to do more, but I think it’s going to far to say most Americans don’t care about the impact elsewhere.

b112 2y ago
but I think it’s going to far to say most Americans don’t care about the impact elsewhere. Indeed. Recently in Palo Alto for a few months. Saw lots of people protesting Tesla dealerships, lots of interesting and creative anti-Trump and Elon signs. Not one word of Canada, of Greenland. Trumps stated goal of destroying Canada's economy to force annexation, or to outright just take Greenland seem not protest worthy. Most people I spoke to seemed barely conscious of the issue. To be fair, other matters may be higher pri in their minds, so if other events were not happening in parallel, it may be different. But when 65 billion dollar defence hardware purchases are being dropped (they are), when future military purchases are not going to happen, when police cars, municipal vehicles are not going to be from US companies any more, when natural resources are going to be sold to the EU and China instead (sadly), the US is going to feel this for a very long time. Because these are choices for decades. And it's not only Canada making them.
- DeathArrow 2y ago
  Why should US citizens deeply care about Canada? It's not their country, they don't live there. Don't tell me Canadians lose sleep thinking about the well being of US.
  - pseudalopex 2y ago
    > Why should US citizens deeply care about Canada? You don't have to deeply care about Canada to oppose annexation threats. > Don't tell me Canadians lose sleep thinking about the well being of US. A Canadian prime minister said Living next to you is in some ways like sleeping with an elephant. No matter how friendly and even-tempered is the beast, if I can call it that, one is affected by every twitch and grunt.[1] [1] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Pierre_Trudeau#1969 https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Pierre_Trudeau#1969

scottLobster 2y ago

"Most" in this case means 49.81% of the vote, with 48.34% voting against. And that's with people largely expecting Trump to behave the same way as last time and a historically unpopular Democratic candidate. Whatever right wing cope you may have read, if the election were held today he'd probably lose. Granted I don't blame foreigners for not risking ICE abuse. And Hockey fans can just be dumb sometimes. A lot of Americans have severe recency bias, the right is saying "the same people telling you this will be catastrophic were the same ones who locked down schools over a cold and told you inflation would be transitory". These people are going to have to touch the stove to learn it's hot, and then they'll admit that it's hot but deny that it's burning them, and then enough at the margins will start to defect such that they start losing elections, leaving a hard-core to endlessly complain about how if they'd only held on until 3rd degree burns the stove would have turned itself off.

palata 2y ago
> Whatever right wing cope you may have read I haven't. I am just telling how I believe it is perceived from outside the US. It seems like Americans here find it a bit excessive for tourists to choose not to come to the US "just because of a mistake at the border". I'm trying to say that from the outside, the US is behaving at least like a big bully, sometimes like an enemy. You don't go on vacation in a country that threatens to attack you militarily.

thesuitonym 2y ago

> The fact that this guy is the President means that most Americans were not against it, right? I don't know if that's strictly accurate. United States citizens are some of the most heavily disenfranchised in the western world. Our oligarchs have spent decades making it more difficult to vote, especially for people of color, who overwhelmingly disapprove of the current administration. In some urban areas, it can take hours of standing in line to vote, and we don't get time off from work to do so. We've also had a decades long propaganda campaign telling us our vote doesn't matter. More people didn't vote in the last election than voted for Trump. That's not to say they all would have voted against him, but it's not really the will of the American people.

mikepurvis 2y ago
And yet today's polling still shows a 43% approval rating for this president and administration: https://www.yahoo.com/news/donald-trump-approval-rating-now-112153322.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/donald-trump-approval-rating-now-... As a Canadian who normally travels to the US 3-4 times a year, that tells me everything I need to know about what "most Americans" think.
- neogodless 2y ago
  I don't blame your sentiment, but as part of the 57% that MASSIVELY DISAPPROVES of that nutjob, I don't like the "most" word being used here ;) Try to remember our weird Electoral College, and that ultimately the vote came down to ~230,000 votes in swing states. (I'm in one of them, and I voted against the felon.) Also hate that "mainstream news" like ABC and CBS covered Saturday's protests with the phrase "tens of thousand" while the protest organizations reported MILLIONS of protesters (about 1% of the population.)
  - mikepurvis 2y ago
    I'm not going to split hairs over what 43% means, but the point is that we are still in an ecosystem where "Trump supporter" is a viable political stance and very much has a seat at the table of discourse. That state of affairs is utterly unacceptable, and signals that overwhelmingly the country doesn't get it yet. Look at how many Greenlanders like Trump— those are the numbers you need to be pulling at home. Once 80-90% of the US population agrees that he's not only a bad president but a threat to democracy and a criminal, then we can talk about feeling safe to travel there again.

DeathArrow 2y ago

[flagged]

palata 2y ago
Do you live in a cave? The current US president, obviously.
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  They are all over this thread either legitimately insane or clearly operating in bad faith. Flag and move on.
rsynnott 2y ago
Minihands. Canada, Greenland, Panama.