3 ms·

Bureaucracy is crazy in Germany. Forget about doing anything online, paper and in person only. Founding any form of limited company is expensive and complicate

Bureaucracy is crazy in Germany. Forget about doing anything online, paper and in person only. Founding any form of limited company is expensive and complicated. Want to put a website online? Have fun putting your full name and address in the imprint. Want to offer some courses that teach X? Yeah, no, you need a license for that, mate! Also being self-employed you lose most social benefits. You need to get private healthcare, you need to save up for retirement and so on. Getting back into public health care later on can be a bit complicated. So my advice is to keep working part time on a job that gives you health insurance and everything and work on your company in your free time. Germany is also one of the least friendly countries for expats. And I say that as a native Germain. Officials will refuse to speak English to you. Yes, refuse. Most people know how to speak English but often can't be arsed to do so. Plus general xenophobia and people being very tight-knit and not open to making new friends.

aleph_minus_one 2y ago
While I completely agree with many of the points that you made, I disagree with some: > Bureaucracy is crazy in Germany. Forget about doing anything online, paper and in person only. The latter point has nothing to do with bureaucracy. > Germany is also one of the least friendly countries for expats. And I say that as a native Germain. Officials will refuse to speak English to you. Yes, refuse. For example in the USA, they will refuse to speak German with you. So what? In my opinion there actually exist good reasons for this: 1. A lot of legal, bureaucratic German terms have no direct analogue in English (and their word forming sometimes depends on subtle grammatical features of the German leanguage). 2. For official purposes, it does not suffice if the clerk can somewhat speak English; he/she rather has to be fluent in a way that is "negotiation-safe" ("verhandlungssicher"; I know that this German term is usually translated with "confident in business discussions", "business fluent", "language proficient", but all of these translations don't catch the subtlety of the German term). > people [are] not open to making new friends. The German word "Freund" (commonly translated with "friend") has a different meaning than the English "friend" - the relationship goes much deeper. I don't think that Germans are not open to making new "Freunde", but if you want to have shallow, superficial relationships, Germany is not the ideal country. Vice versa, if you want to have deep relationships, you will likely be annoyed by the USA.
- cardanome 2y ago
  > For example in the USA, they will refuse to speak German with you. So what? Actually they would most likely be delighted to show off their German if they knew any. But that is besides the point. English for better or worse is the current international language. I can found a new company in Estonia in literal minutes without speaking a single word of Estonian and without being physically present in the country because the whole process is digital and in English. If you want to attract international talent you have to adapt. > The German word "Freund" (commonly translated with "friend") has a different meaning than the English "friend" - the relationship goes much deeper. I don't think that Germans are not open to making new "Freunde", but if you want to have shallow, superficial relationships, Germany is not the ideal country. Vice versa, if you want to have deep relationships, you will likely be annoyed by the USA. Yeah, Americans have only superficial friendships, only us Germans know the value of real friendships. (Sarcasm) You are not wrong about there being subtle cultural differences but it isn't an either or. You can value deep friendships but still be friendly towards acquaintances. In the end it doesn't matter the reason. If expats feel like Germans are acting coldly towards them and have a bad time in Germany, that is what they are feeling. It doesn't matter if there are good reason for that or if Germans didn't even intend to act coldly. It just fact that Germany is often seen as one of the least friendly countries for outsiders. Not everyone, some do find it easy to integrate but most don't. I sick of the chauvinism is see from other Germans. Our culture isn't better or worse than others. We certainly have many areas we could improve.
  - openplatypus 2y ago
    > I can found a new company in Estonia in literal minutes without speaking a single word of Estonian and without being physically present in the country because the whole process is digital and in English. Bad example. When you incorporate in Estonia, if you come through eResidency, they are very clear and very open in stating that ANY interaction with tax office and/or judicial system WILL be and MUST be performed in Estonian.
    - cardanome 2y ago
      Is that an practical issue? I imagine you wouldn't interact with the tax office anyway as you fill the taxes them electronically and as for the judicial system, you are going to need an Estonian lawyer anyway. Genuinely asking. Wondering if someone has experience doing business in Estonia. It looks pretty nice in the prospectus so would love to hear what the reality is.
jamil7 2y ago
> You need to get private healthcare No you don't, you can stay in the public system. > you need to save up for retirement and so on You can still contribute voluntarily to the public pension if you want to but the majority of self-employed people here don't as this is seen as a feature not a bug. Part of the concept of being self-employed in Germany is that you're opting out of the welfare state and are responsible for taking care of yourself. With the potential upside of better raw earning potential.

aleph_minus_one 2y ago

While I completely agree with many of the points that you made, I disagree with some: > Bureaucracy is crazy in Germany. Forget about doing anything online, paper and in person only. The latter point has nothing to do with bureaucracy. > Germany is also one of the least friendly countries for expats. And I say that as a native Germain. Officials will refuse to speak English to you. Yes, refuse. For example in the USA, they will refuse to speak German with you. So what? In my opinion there actually exist good reasons for this: 1. A lot of legal, bureaucratic German terms have no direct analogue in English (and their word forming sometimes depends on subtle grammatical features of the German leanguage). 2. For official purposes, it does not suffice if the clerk can somewhat speak English; he/she rather has to be fluent in a way that is "negotiation-safe" ("verhandlungssicher"; I know that this German term is usually translated with "confident in business discussions", "business fluent", "language proficient", but all of these translations don't catch the subtlety of the German term). > people [are] not open to making new friends. The German word "Freund" (commonly translated with "friend") has a different meaning than the English "friend" - the relationship goes much deeper. I don't think that Germans are not open to making new "Freunde", but if you want to have shallow, superficial relationships, Germany is not the ideal country. Vice versa, if you want to have deep relationships, you will likely be annoyed by the USA.

cardanome 2y ago
> For example in the USA, they will refuse to speak German with you. So what? Actually they would most likely be delighted to show off their German if they knew any. But that is besides the point. English for better or worse is the current international language. I can found a new company in Estonia in literal minutes without speaking a single word of Estonian and without being physically present in the country because the whole process is digital and in English. If you want to attract international talent you have to adapt. > The German word "Freund" (commonly translated with "friend") has a different meaning than the English "friend" - the relationship goes much deeper. I don't think that Germans are not open to making new "Freunde", but if you want to have shallow, superficial relationships, Germany is not the ideal country. Vice versa, if you want to have deep relationships, you will likely be annoyed by the USA. Yeah, Americans have only superficial friendships, only us Germans know the value of real friendships. (Sarcasm) You are not wrong about there being subtle cultural differences but it isn't an either or. You can value deep friendships but still be friendly towards acquaintances. In the end it doesn't matter the reason. If expats feel like Germans are acting coldly towards them and have a bad time in Germany, that is what they are feeling. It doesn't matter if there are good reason for that or if Germans didn't even intend to act coldly. It just fact that Germany is often seen as one of the least friendly countries for outsiders. Not everyone, some do find it easy to integrate but most don't. I sick of the chauvinism is see from other Germans. Our culture isn't better or worse than others. We certainly have many areas we could improve.
- openplatypus 2y ago
  > I can found a new company in Estonia in literal minutes without speaking a single word of Estonian and without being physically present in the country because the whole process is digital and in English. Bad example. When you incorporate in Estonia, if you come through eResidency, they are very clear and very open in stating that ANY interaction with tax office and/or judicial system WILL be and MUST be performed in Estonian.
  - cardanome 2y ago
    Is that an practical issue? I imagine you wouldn't interact with the tax office anyway as you fill the taxes them electronically and as for the judicial system, you are going to need an Estonian lawyer anyway. Genuinely asking. Wondering if someone has experience doing business in Estonia. It looks pretty nice in the prospectus so would love to hear what the reality is.

jamil7 2y ago

> You need to get private healthcare No you don't, you can stay in the public system. > you need to save up for retirement and so on You can still contribute voluntarily to the public pension if you want to but the majority of self-employed people here don't as this is seen as a feature not a bug. Part of the concept of being self-employed in Germany is that you're opting out of the welfare state and are responsible for taking care of yourself. With the potential upside of better raw earning potential.