4 ms·

Well, we are set by your "Windows philosphy", and forget NT being a VMS rehash, we would still be using the crappy W9x designs with DOS crap back and forth. Ev

by anthk 2y ago

Well, we are set by your "Windows philosphy", and forget NT being a VMS rehash, we would still be using the crappy W9x designs with DOS crap back and forth. Even Risc OS seems to do better even if it doesn't have memory protection too (I think it hasn't, I didn't try it for more than a few days).

pjmlp 2y ago
Thing is there is no "Windows philosphy" cargo cult, and I don't worship OSes nor languages, all have their plus and minus, use any of them when the situation calls for it, and it is a disservice to oneself to identify themselves to technology stacks like football club memberships given at birth.
- anthk 2y ago
  Neither I am a sole Unix user; I have Risc OS open (Apache 2.0?) on an RPI to experiment something else beyond Unix/C. But Windows it's too heavyweight, from 8 it has been a disaster. And the NT kernel+explorer can be really slim (look at ReactOS, or XP, or a debloated W7). The problem it's that Apple and MS (and RedHat) are just selling shiny turds wasting tons of cycles to do trivial tasks. Worse, you can't slim down your install so it behaves like a sane system for 1GB of RAM. I can watch 720p@30FPS videos under a n270 netbook with MPV. Something even native players for WXP can't do with low level direct draw calls well enough. The Windows > XP philosophy among RedHat and Apple it's: let bloat and crap out our OSes with unnecesary services and XML crap (and interpreted languages such as JS and C#) for the desktop until hardware vendors idolize US so the average user has to buy new crap to do the same task ever and ever. Security? Why the fuck does Gnome 3 need JS at first? Where's Vala, where it could shine here and Mutter could get a big boost and memory leaks could be a thing of the past?
  - skydhash 2y ago
    While I’m mot bothered by Gnome UI design choices, I was surprised by the choice of JS for the implementation.
  - neonsunset 2y ago
    C# is a compiled language at all levels (source into bytecode, then bytecode into machine code either JIT or AOT). V8 has JIT compilation for hot paths. As a result, JS is significantly faster than the interpreted languages like Python, Ruby and Erlang/Elixir/Gleam.
    - anthk 2y ago
      C and Vala curbstomp JS in speed.
      - neonsunset 2y ago
        C is an unserious and an unusable language when alternatives are available to you. Vala is a toy to write Gnome applications.
        anthk 2y ago
        No one under GTK/Gnome uses plain C, they use Glib as a wrapper. Plain ANSI C might be 'unusable' for modern UI needs, but, as I said, just have a look on WebkitGTK4. Glib everywhere, WebkitSettings are a breeze to setup. Vala it's a toy because Miguel de Icaza went full MS with C# since Ximian. If Vala had more support from Red Hat, Gnome 4 could support Vala as the main language for it. JS? Lua and Luajit wouldb be a better choice for Mutter scripting. If you have a look on how Luakit and Vimb behave, the difference it's almost nil.
DonHopkins 2y ago
Even an operating system as brain damaged as Windows still has PowerShell, which lets you easily and efficiently perform all kinds of operations, dynamically link in libraries ("cmdlets") and call them directly, call functions with typed non-string parameters, pipe live OBJECTS between code running in the SAME address space without copying and context switching and serializing and piping and deserializing everything as text. PowerShell even has a hosting api that lets you embed it inside other applications -- try doing that with bash. At least you can do that with python! When even lowly Windows PowerShell blows your Unix shell out of the water along so many dimensions of power, usability, learnability, maintainability, efficiency, and flexibility, you know for sure your that your Unix shell and the philosophy it rode in on totally sucks, and self imposed ignorance and delusional denial is your only defense against realizing how bankrupt the Unix Philosophy really is. It's such a LOW BAR to lose spectacularly to, and then still try to carry the water and make excuses for the bankrupt "Unix Philosophy" cargo cult. Do better. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerShell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerShell >Pipeline >PowerShell implements the concept of a pipeline, which enables piping the output of one cmdlet to another cmdlet as input. As with Unix pipelines, PowerShell pipelines can construct complex commands, using the | operator to connect stages. However, the PowerShell pipeline differs from Unix pipelines in that stages execute within the PowerShell runtime rather than as a set of processes coordinated by the operating system. Additionally, structured .NET objects, rather than byte streams, are passed from one stage to the next. Using objects and executing stages within the PowerShell runtime eliminates the need to serialize data structures, or to extract them by explicitly parsing text output.[47] An object can also encapsulate certain functions that work on the contained data, which become available to the recipient command for use.[48][49] For the last cmdlet in a pipeline, PowerShell automatically pipes its output object to the Out-Default cmdlet, which transforms the objects into a stream of format objects and then renders those to the screen.[50][51] >Because all PowerShell objects are .NET objects, they share a .ToString() method, which retrieves the text representation of the data in an object. In addition, PowerShell allows formatting definitions to be specified, so the text representation of objects can be customized by choosing which data elements to display, and in what manner. However, in order to maintain backward compatibility, if an external executable is used in a pipeline, it receives a text stream representing the object, instead of directly integrating with the PowerShell type system.[52][53][54] > Hosting >One can also use PowerShell embedded in a management application, which uses the PowerShell runtime to implement the management functionality. For this, PowerShell provides a managed hosting API. Via the APIs, the application can instantiate a runspace (one instantiation of the PowerShell runtime), which runs in the application's process and is exposed as a Runspace object.[12] The state of the runspace is encased in a SessionState object. When the runspace is created, the Windows PowerShell runtime initializes the instantiation, including initializing the providers and enumerating the cmdlets, and updates the SessionState object accordingly. The Runspace then must be opened for either synchronous processing or asynchronous processing. After that it can be used to execute commands. [...]

by anthk 2y ago

pjmlp 2y ago

Thing is there is no "Windows philosphy" cargo cult, and I don't worship OSes nor languages, all have their plus and minus, use any of them when the situation calls for it, and it is a disservice to oneself to identify themselves to technology stacks like football club memberships given at birth.

anthk 2y ago
Neither I am a sole Unix user; I have Risc OS open (Apache 2.0?) on an RPI to experiment something else beyond Unix/C. But Windows it's too heavyweight, from 8 it has been a disaster. And the NT kernel+explorer can be really slim (look at ReactOS, or XP, or a debloated W7). The problem it's that Apple and MS (and RedHat) are just selling shiny turds wasting tons of cycles to do trivial tasks. Worse, you can't slim down your install so it behaves like a sane system for 1GB of RAM. I can watch 720p@30FPS videos under a n270 netbook with MPV. Something even native players for WXP can't do with low level direct draw calls well enough. The Windows > XP philosophy among RedHat and Apple it's: let bloat and crap out our OSes with unnecesary services and XML crap (and interpreted languages such as JS and C#) for the desktop until hardware vendors idolize US so the average user has to buy new crap to do the same task ever and ever. Security? Why the fuck does Gnome 3 need JS at first? Where's Vala, where it could shine here and Mutter could get a big boost and memory leaks could be a thing of the past?
- skydhash 2y ago
  While I’m mot bothered by Gnome UI design choices, I was surprised by the choice of JS for the implementation.
- neonsunset 2y ago
  C# is a compiled language at all levels (source into bytecode, then bytecode into machine code either JIT or AOT). V8 has JIT compilation for hot paths. As a result, JS is significantly faster than the interpreted languages like Python, Ruby and Erlang/Elixir/Gleam.
  - anthk 2y ago
    C and Vala curbstomp JS in speed.
    - neonsunset 2y ago
      C is an unserious and an unusable language when alternatives are available to you. Vala is a toy to write Gnome applications.
      - anthk 2y ago
        No one under GTK/Gnome uses plain C, they use Glib as a wrapper. Plain ANSI C might be 'unusable' for modern UI needs, but, as I said, just have a look on WebkitGTK4. Glib everywhere, WebkitSettings are a breeze to setup. Vala it's a toy because Miguel de Icaza went full MS with C# since Ximian. If Vala had more support from Red Hat, Gnome 4 could support Vala as the main language for it. JS? Lua and Luajit wouldb be a better choice for Mutter scripting. If you have a look on how Luakit and Vimb behave, the difference it's almost nil.

DonHopkins 2y ago

Even an operating system as brain damaged as Windows still has PowerShell, which lets you easily and efficiently perform all kinds of operations, dynamically link in libraries ("cmdlets") and call them directly, call functions with typed non-string parameters, pipe live OBJECTS between code running in the SAME address space without copying and context switching and serializing and piping and deserializing everything as text. PowerShell even has a hosting api that lets you embed it inside other applications -- try doing that with bash. At least you can do that with python! When even lowly Windows PowerShell blows your Unix shell out of the water along so many dimensions of power, usability, learnability, maintainability, efficiency, and flexibility, you know for sure your that your Unix shell and the philosophy it rode in on totally sucks, and self imposed ignorance and delusional denial is your only defense against realizing how bankrupt the Unix Philosophy really is. It's such a LOW BAR to lose spectacularly to, and then still try to carry the water and make excuses for the bankrupt "Unix Philosophy" cargo cult. Do better. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerShell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerShell >Pipeline >PowerShell implements the concept of a pipeline, which enables piping the output of one cmdlet to another cmdlet as input. As with Unix pipelines, PowerShell pipelines can construct complex commands, using the | operator to connect stages. However, the PowerShell pipeline differs from Unix pipelines in that stages execute within the PowerShell runtime rather than as a set of processes coordinated by the operating system. Additionally, structured .NET objects, rather than byte streams, are passed from one stage to the next. Using objects and executing stages within the PowerShell runtime eliminates the need to serialize data structures, or to extract them by explicitly parsing text output.[47] An object can also encapsulate certain functions that work on the contained data, which become available to the recipient command for use.[48][49] For the last cmdlet in a pipeline, PowerShell automatically pipes its output object to the Out-Default cmdlet, which transforms the objects into a stream of format objects and then renders those to the screen.[50][51] >Because all PowerShell objects are .NET objects, they share a .ToString() method, which retrieves the text representation of the data in an object. In addition, PowerShell allows formatting definitions to be specified, so the text representation of objects can be customized by choosing which data elements to display, and in what manner. However, in order to maintain backward compatibility, if an external executable is used in a pipeline, it receives a text stream representing the object, instead of directly integrating with the PowerShell type system.[52][53][54] > Hosting >One can also use PowerShell embedded in a management application, which uses the PowerShell runtime to implement the management functionality. For this, PowerShell provides a managed hosting API. Via the APIs, the application can instantiate a runspace (one instantiation of the PowerShell runtime), which runs in the application's process and is exposed as a Runspace object.[12] The state of the runspace is encased in a SessionState object. When the runspace is created, the Windows PowerShell runtime initializes the instantiation, including initializing the providers and enumerating the cmdlets, and updates the SessionState object accordingly. The Runspace then must be opened for either synchronous processing or asynchronous processing. After that it can be used to execute commands. [...]