4 ms·

Considering current politics: not in the US, at least not for the foreseeable future. Europe remains to be seen, but also unlikely short term as we're also sla

by ffsm8 2y ago

Considering current politics: not in the US, at least not for the foreseeable future. Europe remains to be seen, but also unlikely short term as we're also slapping lots of tariffs on chinese EVs to protect local industries

LoganDark 2y ago
Countries really need to stop unfairly penalizing Chinese EVs. If they aren't allowed to compete, local industries will never have an incentive to improve. No argument about safety has ever had any merit - Teslas burst into flames all the time.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > If they aren't allowed to compete, local industries will never have an incentive to improve. Neither Europe nor the US can compete with the level of disdain for the environment, labor laws and poverty that China brings to the table. Wages alone make anything made in China so cheap that, for mass-market goods, competing against China (or its upcoming competitors in the race to the bottom) is impossible.
  - LoganDark 2y ago
    So what if someone living on Chinese wages wouldn't be able to afford American goods? The equivalent Chinese goods are perfectly affordable for them. You seemingly forget that China is a self-sufficient economy. It's not like people are working 16 hours a day to afford an apartment like in the US. Apartments in China can be as low as USD $400 a month or less. Try running your wage and poverty calculations with that?
  - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
    >Neither Europe nor the US can compete with the level of disdain for the environment, labor laws and poverty that China brings to the table Why haven't western governments and companies brought this up as an issue when they moved our jobs to China 30 years ago forcing us to buy our stuff but made in China while their profits skyrocketed? And bear in mind Chinese pollution, wages and living standards were way worse back then than today. It feels incredibly hypocritical for western companies to cry about these things NOW, right when the Chinese companies have started eating their lunch on their home turf, while they rode the gravy train for 30 years. It's almost as if they wanted to have their cake and eat it too but now have to reap what they sow and they don't like it.
    - hulitu 2y ago
      > It's almost as if they have to reap what they sow and they don't like it. They do reap what they sow. The automotive industry is a victim of its own stupidity. They lobbied for features until the cars became so expensive that nobody buys them.
      - LoganDark 2y ago
        > They lobbied for features until the cars became so expensive that nobody buys them. Dealerships still try to sell people on financing and that makes them so much money.
    - mschuster91 2y ago
      > Why haven't western governments and companies brought this up as an issue when they moved our jobs to China 30 years ago forcing us to buy our stuff but made in China while their profits skyrocketed? Our people loved it for the first few years because a lot of stuff became cheaper (or affordable at all), our governments loved it because now someone else would have to deal with toxic waste, and our companies and especially their owners made untold billions of profit that they were allowed to keep. By the time China was strong enough to begin the "extinguish" phase of their 20 year economic plan, and the Western nations could no longer hide or deny the issues, it was far too late.
  - fransworst 2y ago
    China has lower levels of extreme poverty than the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_percentage_of_population_living_in_poverty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_percentag... (percentage living off of less than 2.65USD a day). They also have lower per capita emissions than the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...
  - StopDisinfo910 2y ago
    > Neither Europe nor the US can compete with the level of disdain for the environment, labor laws and poverty that China brings to the table. The issue is entirely subsidies at this point. Labour costs have been steadily rising for the past decades and significant poverty hasn't been an issue for a long time. Emission wise, China is strictly ahead of the USA when you look per capita (unsurprisingly, they are not an oil producer). China is not in a race to the bottom. Their hdi has been steadily climbing. They are economically more or less in the same position that Japan was in the 80s before the Plaza accord but with less prosperity, on the verge of becoming a developed country.
    - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
      >The issue is entirely subsidies at this point. Which is a moot point because European manufacturers also received insane subsidies form their governments in the past. The issue is China has been innovating in EVs hardcore for 15+ years while European manufactures kept pushing diesels and cutting costs with their suppliers and were only making EVs to shut up the green hippies, but were never committed to them, and now they've been caught with their pants down unable to compete on price nor on technology. They got fat, lazy and complacent thinking their brand names would carry them.
      - StopDisinfo910 2y ago
        > Which is a moot point because European manufacturers also received insane subsidies form their governments in the past. There is no external arbiter here to call it even and declare it moot. The WTO was supposed to somewhat be that but has been completely defanged by non cooperation. Every country is sovereign regarding both how it subsidies its companies and how it taxes imports. The European Union can both support its manufacturers and be unhappy about China doing the same. > They got fat, lazy and complacent thinking their brand names would carry them. Sure, but strategic inadequecy of the local companies doesn't necessarily prevent countries from wanting to protect their manufacturing sector. It's a lot of jobs from Germany and the value chain is split between a lot of small subcontractors injecting a lot of money in their local economy. Having said that, the future is not necessarily a completely black and white alternative between punitive tariffs fully blocking more efficient Chinese companies à la Trump and a fully free market. There is plenty of space for agreements involving companies partnership, partial technological transfers, bringing part of the value chain closer to the final consumer. China has been really smart at this game with the mandatory JV with a local partner for getting access to their market. Maybe it's time we start using the same playbook.
- bojan 2y ago
  Nothing unfair about it, it is easy to build a car for cheaper if you don't care about worker rights and the environment.
  - LoganDark 2y ago
    It's not about price! As an example, China has had battery-swap stations for certain models of EV for years (see Nio). In just over a couple minutes (depending on the station), they automatically drop the battery out of the car and install a new one that is fully charged. It is even faster than DC charging in the US and Europe. But because those cars are either illegal or prohibitively expensive to import and use, there is no incentive for domestic industries to compete with it. As far as they're concerned, anything that makes a Chinese EV compelling is some sort of strategic threat against the US, rather than the product simply being better. How cool would it be if instead of having to slowly charge the same battery in my EV over its lifetime, I could (say) subscribe to a network of well-kept batteries and easily get a fully-charged one whenever mine gets low? Too bad China is so out of reach for me; though even if it weren't, those battery-swap stations don't really exist here - though I'm sure that's just another artifact of widespread sinophobia. That's only one example. See these article (or honestly any article) for more: https://www.investors.com/news/chinese-electric-cars-americans-cannot-buy-budget-to-luxury/ https://www.investors.com/news/chinese-electric-cars-america... https://www.carwow.co.uk/electric-cars/chinese https://www.carwow.co.uk/electric-cars/chinese Dismiss it as propaganda if you wish, but it's not like it's fake. The cars they show are real.
    - officeplant 2y ago
      As an EV owner I just don't see the benefit in the battery swap method. I spend a lot of time monitoring my battery's health and keeping the cell balance from going too far out of line. Maybe its short sighted of me, but I don't want some abused battery from another owner swapped into my EV. The amount of trust I'd have to place on a battery swap station to give me a battery that's just as reliable/healthy as my own managed battery is far too great. Would they just reject people who try to swap faulty battery's or just take it as an operational loss and recycle batteries that fall out of spec. Of course a lot of this ties into future ownership/rental financial models, however the world works with everything going towards subscription in the future. If you're just subscription/leasing a car as a service the vast majority of people won't care of give a shit anyway. As for now I own my EV and when the battery needs replacement ten years from now I expect to be able to buy another one, hopefully larger/more capable, and continue on my merry way.
- xeromal 2y ago
  There's a lot to unpack in your statement but China kneecaps their own purchasing of their goods in order to have cheap exports at the expense of their own civilians. Each country should act in the interest of their own civilians and industries. We can already see from Ukraine that having self-capability to produce your own weaponry is a good though. Producing vehicles is an aspect of that.
- maxdo 2y ago
  Hm , in China you can’t buy any foreign made car without 70-90% taxes. That’s exactly how they built their industry

by ffsm8 2y ago

LoganDark 2y ago

Countries really need to stop unfairly penalizing Chinese EVs. If they aren't allowed to compete, local industries will never have an incentive to improve. No argument about safety has ever had any merit - Teslas burst into flames all the time.

mschuster91 2y ago
> If they aren't allowed to compete, local industries will never have an incentive to improve. Neither Europe nor the US can compete with the level of disdain for the environment, labor laws and poverty that China brings to the table. Wages alone make anything made in China so cheap that, for mass-market goods, competing against China (or its upcoming competitors in the race to the bottom) is impossible.
- LoganDark 2y ago
  So what if someone living on Chinese wages wouldn't be able to afford American goods? The equivalent Chinese goods are perfectly affordable for them. You seemingly forget that China is a self-sufficient economy. It's not like people are working 16 hours a day to afford an apartment like in the US. Apartments in China can be as low as USD $400 a month or less. Try running your wage and poverty calculations with that?
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago
  >Neither Europe nor the US can compete with the level of disdain for the environment, labor laws and poverty that China brings to the table Why haven't western governments and companies brought this up as an issue when they moved our jobs to China 30 years ago forcing us to buy our stuff but made in China while their profits skyrocketed? And bear in mind Chinese pollution, wages and living standards were way worse back then than today. It feels incredibly hypocritical for western companies to cry about these things NOW, right when the Chinese companies have started eating their lunch on their home turf, while they rode the gravy train for 30 years. It's almost as if they wanted to have their cake and eat it too but now have to reap what they sow and they don't like it.
  - hulitu 2y ago
    > It's almost as if they have to reap what they sow and they don't like it. They do reap what they sow. The automotive industry is a victim of its own stupidity. They lobbied for features until the cars became so expensive that nobody buys them.
    - LoganDark 2y ago
      > They lobbied for features until the cars became so expensive that nobody buys them. Dealerships still try to sell people on financing and that makes them so much money.
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    > Why haven't western governments and companies brought this up as an issue when they moved our jobs to China 30 years ago forcing us to buy our stuff but made in China while their profits skyrocketed? Our people loved it for the first few years because a lot of stuff became cheaper (or affordable at all), our governments loved it because now someone else would have to deal with toxic waste, and our companies and especially their owners made untold billions of profit that they were allowed to keep. By the time China was strong enough to begin the "extinguish" phase of their 20 year economic plan, and the Western nations could no longer hide or deny the issues, it was far too late.
- fransworst 2y ago
  China has lower levels of extreme poverty than the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_percentage_of_population_living_in_poverty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_percentag... (percentage living off of less than 2.65USD a day). They also have lower per capita emissions than the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...
- StopDisinfo910 2y ago
  > Neither Europe nor the US can compete with the level of disdain for the environment, labor laws and poverty that China brings to the table. The issue is entirely subsidies at this point. Labour costs have been steadily rising for the past decades and significant poverty hasn't been an issue for a long time. Emission wise, China is strictly ahead of the USA when you look per capita (unsurprisingly, they are not an oil producer). China is not in a race to the bottom. Their hdi has been steadily climbing. They are economically more or less in the same position that Japan was in the 80s before the Plaza accord but with less prosperity, on the verge of becoming a developed country.
  - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
    >The issue is entirely subsidies at this point. Which is a moot point because European manufacturers also received insane subsidies form their governments in the past. The issue is China has been innovating in EVs hardcore for 15+ years while European manufactures kept pushing diesels and cutting costs with their suppliers and were only making EVs to shut up the green hippies, but were never committed to them, and now they've been caught with their pants down unable to compete on price nor on technology. They got fat, lazy and complacent thinking their brand names would carry them.
    - StopDisinfo910 2y ago
      > Which is a moot point because European manufacturers also received insane subsidies form their governments in the past. There is no external arbiter here to call it even and declare it moot. The WTO was supposed to somewhat be that but has been completely defanged by non cooperation. Every country is sovereign regarding both how it subsidies its companies and how it taxes imports. The European Union can both support its manufacturers and be unhappy about China doing the same. > They got fat, lazy and complacent thinking their brand names would carry them. Sure, but strategic inadequecy of the local companies doesn't necessarily prevent countries from wanting to protect their manufacturing sector. It's a lot of jobs from Germany and the value chain is split between a lot of small subcontractors injecting a lot of money in their local economy. Having said that, the future is not necessarily a completely black and white alternative between punitive tariffs fully blocking more efficient Chinese companies à la Trump and a fully free market. There is plenty of space for agreements involving companies partnership, partial technological transfers, bringing part of the value chain closer to the final consumer. China has been really smart at this game with the mandatory JV with a local partner for getting access to their market. Maybe it's time we start using the same playbook.
bojan 2y ago
Nothing unfair about it, it is easy to build a car for cheaper if you don't care about worker rights and the environment.
- LoganDark 2y ago
  It's not about price! As an example, China has had battery-swap stations for certain models of EV for years (see Nio). In just over a couple minutes (depending on the station), they automatically drop the battery out of the car and install a new one that is fully charged. It is even faster than DC charging in the US and Europe. But because those cars are either illegal or prohibitively expensive to import and use, there is no incentive for domestic industries to compete with it. As far as they're concerned, anything that makes a Chinese EV compelling is some sort of strategic threat against the US, rather than the product simply being better. How cool would it be if instead of having to slowly charge the same battery in my EV over its lifetime, I could (say) subscribe to a network of well-kept batteries and easily get a fully-charged one whenever mine gets low? Too bad China is so out of reach for me; though even if it weren't, those battery-swap stations don't really exist here - though I'm sure that's just another artifact of widespread sinophobia. That's only one example. See these article (or honestly any article) for more: https://www.investors.com/news/chinese-electric-cars-americans-cannot-buy-budget-to-luxury/ https://www.investors.com/news/chinese-electric-cars-america... https://www.carwow.co.uk/electric-cars/chinese https://www.carwow.co.uk/electric-cars/chinese Dismiss it as propaganda if you wish, but it's not like it's fake. The cars they show are real.
  - officeplant 2y ago
    As an EV owner I just don't see the benefit in the battery swap method. I spend a lot of time monitoring my battery's health and keeping the cell balance from going too far out of line. Maybe its short sighted of me, but I don't want some abused battery from another owner swapped into my EV. The amount of trust I'd have to place on a battery swap station to give me a battery that's just as reliable/healthy as my own managed battery is far too great. Would they just reject people who try to swap faulty battery's or just take it as an operational loss and recycle batteries that fall out of spec. Of course a lot of this ties into future ownership/rental financial models, however the world works with everything going towards subscription in the future. If you're just subscription/leasing a car as a service the vast majority of people won't care of give a shit anyway. As for now I own my EV and when the battery needs replacement ten years from now I expect to be able to buy another one, hopefully larger/more capable, and continue on my merry way.
xeromal 2y ago
There's a lot to unpack in your statement but China kneecaps their own purchasing of their goods in order to have cheap exports at the expense of their own civilians. Each country should act in the interest of their own civilians and industries. We can already see from Ukraine that having self-capability to produce your own weaponry is a good though. Producing vehicles is an aspect of that.
maxdo 2y ago
Hm , in China you can’t buy any foreign made car without 70-90% taxes. That’s exactly how they built their industry