4 ms·

To quote Black Adder: Some of you may die, but some of us will live!

by Ygg2 2y ago

throw0101d 2y ago
"Some of you may die, but it's a sacrifice I am willing to make." — Lord Farquaad, Shrek, https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0126029/characters/nm0001475?item=qt0398103 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0126029/characters/nm0001475?it...
- smallmancontrov 2y ago
  The irony is almost palpable, invoking this quote against a system that is driving 600 million miles a quarter without the 8 deaths a human would cause over the same distance.
  - daveguy 2y ago
    [citation needed] Tesla releases all self driving statistics including time since disengagement of self-driving before accident, right?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - smallmancontrov 2y ago
      https://www.nhtsa.gov/laws-regulations/standing-general-order-crash-reporting#:~:text=ADS%3A%20Entities%20named%20in%20the,in%20property%20damage%20or%20injury. https://www.nhtsa.gov/laws-regulations/standing-general-orde... The numbers include all incidents where self-driving was active within 30 seconds of the crash, because of course they do. The meme that Tesla is allowed to simply bypass reporting on a technicality would be absurd if it weren't so voraciously spread by post-truth luddites. Look, if you want to dunk on Elon, I get it, but he does so many real shitty things that I would ask you to focus on those and not make shit up.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - triplesec 2y ago
        Guess what: Musk will probably get this rewuirement scrapped by his orange mate. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/trump-transition-recommends-scrapping-car-crash-reporting-requirement-opposed-by-2024-12-13/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/trump-...
        smallmancontrov 2y ago
        Finally some good criticism in this godforsaken thread. Yes, Elon wants to do corruption and we should oppose him.
      - bumby 2y ago
        If Tesla is Level 2, that link doesn’t support the OPs point about “all” incidents, but rather only those involved in a fatality, hospital treatment, airbag deployment, or towed vehicle. Am I reading that link correctly?
        smallmancontrov 2y ago
        The problem with "all" incidents is that reporting bias drowns the whole thing in noise. I clipped a curb the other year and didn't report it to anyone -- am I messing up the statistics? In contrast, hospitalizations and bodies are concrete enough to all but eliminate reporting bias. Of course, at first this just substitutes one type of problem for another because even shitty drivers have to drive many lifetimes of distance before killing anyone so you wind up with the unfortunately named "shot noise" from small-N. But Tesla FSD drives so many miles that the statistics are no longer small-N. If supervised FSD was worse than human, we should be seeing many more bodies than we do, so supervised FSD is clearly better than human. Of course, that number needs to be adjusted for critical interventions before we can say anything about unsupervised FSD, and in an ideal universe I wish Tesla was forced to disclose those figures. Unfortunately, we live in a universe where luddites are firmly in control of this conversation and I cannot deny that a forced disclosure would be heavily abused in a way that costs lives. Still, regulators get to see the numbers before approving unsupervised rollouts, and as a compromise this makes neither myself nor the luddites happy but I suppose it will do.
  - toddmorey 2y ago
    The argument here isn't against self-driving. Flying is also 100x safer than driving, but there's still real value in continuing to use the best technology we have available to make flying even safer. "Not a single other automobile manufacturer or ADAS self-driving technology provider reported a single motorcycle fatality in the same time frame."
    - smallmancontrov 2y ago
      Ok, what other ADAS is driving over 2 billion miles a year? As for "best technology available," the galaxy brains in this thread are tossing out numbers assuming that sensor fusion never fails and that correlated failure modes can be neglected, which is wild. I never thought Elon was a genius -- he's a business guy willing to make big bets on interesting tech, nothing more nothing less -- but if the confidently incorrect engineering claims on display in this thread are any indication, maybe you guys should be calling him a genius after all, because this ain't it.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - josephcsible 2y ago
      > there's still real value in continuing to use the best technology we have available to make flying even safer. That's true, but it would obviously be completely unreasonable to stop all flying in the meantime.
      - TheBicPen 2y ago
        Grounding entire fleets of aircraft when a safety issue is discovered is completely normal, and that's the way things should happen. Remember when the MCAS issue was discovered on Boeing 737 MAXes after 2 fatal crashes? They were all grounded for a while, and rightfully so.
  - ChoHag 2y ago
    [dead]
  - Mawr 2y ago
    FSD is not able to drive in the same conditions humans are so you're comparing humans driving in challenging conditions to FSD driving in good weather on highways.

To quote Black Adder: Some of you may die, but some of us will live!

by Ygg2 2y ago

To quote Black Adder: Some of you may die, but some of us will live!

"Some of you may die, but it's a sacrifice I am willing to make." — Lord Farquaad, Shrek, https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0126029/characters/nm0001475?item=qt0398103 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0126029/characters/nm0001475?it...

smallmancontrov 2y ago
The irony is almost palpable, invoking this quote against a system that is driving 600 million miles a quarter without the 8 deaths a human would cause over the same distance.
- daveguy 2y ago
  [citation needed] Tesla releases all self driving statistics including time since disengagement of self-driving before accident, right?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - smallmancontrov 2y ago
    https://www.nhtsa.gov/laws-regulations/standing-general-order-crash-reporting#:~:text=ADS%3A%20Entities%20named%20in%20the,in%20property%20damage%20or%20injury. https://www.nhtsa.gov/laws-regulations/standing-general-orde... The numbers include all incidents where self-driving was active within 30 seconds of the crash, because of course they do. The meme that Tesla is allowed to simply bypass reporting on a technicality would be absurd if it weren't so voraciously spread by post-truth luddites. Look, if you want to dunk on Elon, I get it, but he does so many real shitty things that I would ask you to focus on those and not make shit up.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - triplesec 2y ago
      Guess what: Musk will probably get this rewuirement scrapped by his orange mate. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/trump-transition-recommends-scrapping-car-crash-reporting-requirement-opposed-by-2024-12-13/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/trump-...
      - smallmancontrov 2y ago
        Finally some good criticism in this godforsaken thread. Yes, Elon wants to do corruption and we should oppose him.
    - bumby 2y ago
      If Tesla is Level 2, that link doesn’t support the OPs point about “all” incidents, but rather only those involved in a fatality, hospital treatment, airbag deployment, or towed vehicle. Am I reading that link correctly?
      - smallmancontrov 2y ago
        The problem with "all" incidents is that reporting bias drowns the whole thing in noise. I clipped a curb the other year and didn't report it to anyone -- am I messing up the statistics? In contrast, hospitalizations and bodies are concrete enough to all but eliminate reporting bias. Of course, at first this just substitutes one type of problem for another because even shitty drivers have to drive many lifetimes of distance before killing anyone so you wind up with the unfortunately named "shot noise" from small-N. But Tesla FSD drives so many miles that the statistics are no longer small-N. If supervised FSD was worse than human, we should be seeing many more bodies than we do, so supervised FSD is clearly better than human. Of course, that number needs to be adjusted for critical interventions before we can say anything about unsupervised FSD, and in an ideal universe I wish Tesla was forced to disclose those figures. Unfortunately, we live in a universe where luddites are firmly in control of this conversation and I cannot deny that a forced disclosure would be heavily abused in a way that costs lives. Still, regulators get to see the numbers before approving unsupervised rollouts, and as a compromise this makes neither myself nor the luddites happy but I suppose it will do.
- toddmorey 2y ago
  The argument here isn't against self-driving. Flying is also 100x safer than driving, but there's still real value in continuing to use the best technology we have available to make flying even safer. "Not a single other automobile manufacturer or ADAS self-driving technology provider reported a single motorcycle fatality in the same time frame."
  - smallmancontrov 2y ago
    Ok, what other ADAS is driving over 2 billion miles a year? As for "best technology available," the galaxy brains in this thread are tossing out numbers assuming that sensor fusion never fails and that correlated failure modes can be neglected, which is wild. I never thought Elon was a genius -- he's a business guy willing to make big bets on interesting tech, nothing more nothing less -- but if the confidently incorrect engineering claims on display in this thread are any indication, maybe you guys should be calling him a genius after all, because this ain't it.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - josephcsible 2y ago
    > there's still real value in continuing to use the best technology we have available to make flying even safer. That's true, but it would obviously be completely unreasonable to stop all flying in the meantime.
    - TheBicPen 2y ago
      Grounding entire fleets of aircraft when a safety issue is discovered is completely normal, and that's the way things should happen. Remember when the MCAS issue was discovered on Boeing 737 MAXes after 2 fatal crashes? They were all grounded for a while, and rightfully so.
- ChoHag 2y ago
  [dead]
- Mawr 2y ago
  FSD is not able to drive in the same conditions humans are so you're comparing humans driving in challenging conditions to FSD driving in good weather on highways.