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How do you rectify the simultaneous feelings that arise from knowing that Israel is shooting innocent civilians and knowing that Hamas uses ambulances to carry

How do you rectify the simultaneous feelings that arise from knowing that Israel is shooting innocent civilians and knowing that Hamas uses ambulances to carry out missions? Am I the only one aware of this? Everyone else seems to be blind in one eye...

wredcoll 2y ago
Dunno, which side has more power?
- claytongulick 2y ago
  I'm confused. Are you making an argument that relative lack of power justifies immoral actions? I.e. "My family is starving, I have less money than others, so it's ok for me to steal bread" (hat tip to Jean Valjean). Just curious about your perspective.
  - jpc0 2y ago
    Unrelated to the above discussion but, not justfies it, it's still wrong. But a poor hungry person is a lot more likely to commit a crime of opportunity that feeds them and their family than a well of, well fed person. Maybe you are actually agreeing with me. My view, as a neutral observer to the Hamas / IDF debate is they are both wrong and you would ( inclusive you not you specifically ) would probably do the same... Cough Afghanistan etc...
    - nailer 2y ago
      Gaza has an incredibly high obesity rate, over 4K calories a day per capita, and it’s Hamas that stockpiles food not Israel.
  - wredcoll 2y ago
    I'm actually making the argument that people should be held more accountable for solving problems the more power they have. It's easy to say "both sides" committed immoral actions, but that doesn't really get us anywhere useful, other than perhaps some moral superiority. If we want to actually solve problems, i.e. prevent those bad things from happening in the future, the practical suggestion is to start with those people who have the most power to effect change.
    - claytongulick 2y ago
      So, "with great power comes great responsibility". That's a concept I've believed in since Stan Lee illustrated it so beautifully to me as a child. I'm not qualified to engage in serious ethics debates, and I'm definitely not qualified to hold an opinion on anything going on in the middle east. Watching the news and scrolling social media in no way prepares me to understand the deep and complex issues of the region. I was just curious about your perspective. Thanks for explaining.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
khaledh 2y ago
> Hamas uses ambulances to carry out missions Not trying to defend Hamas, but is there any actual proof of this? Or is it just based on Israel's statements (which has been found to lie repeatedly)?
- Workaccount2 2y ago
  Sure, you can reframe it to leave out Israeli news sources. There is ample footage online of fighting between the two, and Hamas fighters don't wear uniforms. Which fits with Hamas fighting right out of the guerilla warfare playbook. So it can be reframed as "How do you reconcile Israel killing innocent civilians with the fact the the main way to tell if they are innocent is whether or not they had a gun in their hands when killed?"
  - khaledh 2y ago
    > the main way to tell if they are innocent is whether or not they had a gun in their hands when killed? I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that it's ok for the IDF to kill anyone they see because they cannot assess if they're a threat or not? Was it hard to see that this grandmother¹ with her grandson is not a militant trying to attack the IDF? ¹https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2024/01/25/palestinians-gaza-shooting-investigation-ward-intl-ldn-vpx.cnn https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2024/01/25/palestinians-gaz...
    - Workaccount2 2y ago
      My point is very clear: Hamas purposely doesn't issue uniforms (they are extremely wealthy, so it's not like they cannot afford it) in order to muddy the waters between civilian and combatant. Put another way: Hamas's choice camouflage is "Civilian attire". Sorry if I wasn't clear, I'm not talking about war crimes like you brought up, I'm talking about general combat between the two sides, like you can see in the gazillions of videos posted (both by Israeli sources and Palestinian sources).
      - khaledh 2y ago

wredcoll 2y ago

Dunno, which side has more power?

claytongulick 2y ago
I'm confused. Are you making an argument that relative lack of power justifies immoral actions? I.e. "My family is starving, I have less money than others, so it's ok for me to steal bread" (hat tip to Jean Valjean). Just curious about your perspective.
- jpc0 2y ago
  Unrelated to the above discussion but, not justfies it, it's still wrong. But a poor hungry person is a lot more likely to commit a crime of opportunity that feeds them and their family than a well of, well fed person. Maybe you are actually agreeing with me. My view, as a neutral observer to the Hamas / IDF debate is they are both wrong and you would ( inclusive you not you specifically ) would probably do the same... Cough Afghanistan etc...
  - nailer 2y ago
    Gaza has an incredibly high obesity rate, over 4K calories a day per capita, and it’s Hamas that stockpiles food not Israel.
- wredcoll 2y ago
  I'm actually making the argument that people should be held more accountable for solving problems the more power they have. It's easy to say "both sides" committed immoral actions, but that doesn't really get us anywhere useful, other than perhaps some moral superiority. If we want to actually solve problems, i.e. prevent those bad things from happening in the future, the practical suggestion is to start with those people who have the most power to effect change.
  - claytongulick 2y ago
    So, "with great power comes great responsibility". That's a concept I've believed in since Stan Lee illustrated it so beautifully to me as a child. I'm not qualified to engage in serious ethics debates, and I'm definitely not qualified to hold an opinion on anything going on in the middle east. Watching the news and scrolling social media in no way prepares me to understand the deep and complex issues of the region. I was just curious about your perspective. Thanks for explaining.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

khaledh 2y ago

> Hamas uses ambulances to carry out missions Not trying to defend Hamas, but is there any actual proof of this? Or is it just based on Israel's statements (which has been found to lie repeatedly)?

Workaccount2 2y ago
Sure, you can reframe it to leave out Israeli news sources. There is ample footage online of fighting between the two, and Hamas fighters don't wear uniforms. Which fits with Hamas fighting right out of the guerilla warfare playbook. So it can be reframed as "How do you reconcile Israel killing innocent civilians with the fact the the main way to tell if they are innocent is whether or not they had a gun in their hands when killed?"
- khaledh 2y ago
  > the main way to tell if they are innocent is whether or not they had a gun in their hands when killed? I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that it's ok for the IDF to kill anyone they see because they cannot assess if they're a threat or not? Was it hard to see that this grandmother¹ with her grandson is not a militant trying to attack the IDF? ¹https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2024/01/25/palestinians-gaza-shooting-investigation-ward-intl-ldn-vpx.cnn https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2024/01/25/palestinians-gaz...
  - Workaccount2 2y ago
    My point is very clear: Hamas purposely doesn't issue uniforms (they are extremely wealthy, so it's not like they cannot afford it) in order to muddy the waters between civilian and combatant. Put another way: Hamas's choice camouflage is "Civilian attire". Sorry if I wasn't clear, I'm not talking about war crimes like you brought up, I'm talking about general combat between the two sides, like you can see in the gazillions of videos posted (both by Israeli sources and Palestinian sources).
    - khaledh 2y ago