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I can imagine a useful EV without lidar (my ICE vehicles certainly don't have one). I cannot imagine a useful EV without a battery.

catlikesshrimp 2y ago
I can't imagine a "full self driving" car that performs worse than humans be allowed in the streets. In medicine, the ethics commitee would shot the project early. Edit: Comparing "ev vehicle" with "autonomous vehicle"
- timschmidt 2y ago
  I wouldn't use medicine as an example in this case. Medicine does all kinds of ill advised things because they're worse for the disease than the patient. And all kinds of things they know will kill the patient if there's opportunity to learn and improve other lives. It seems like Tesla's been pretty clear with drivers who've opted in to FSD that they're helping to test and develop a system which isn't perfect. Just off the top of the head, look up Henrietta Lacks for a notable example of how medicine has handled informed consent.
  - catlikesshrimp 2y ago
    > "It seems like Tesla's been pretty clear with drivers who've opted in to FSD that they're helping to test and develop a system which isn't perfect." Strawman No matter how many contracts and disclaimers they get in their favor. The "Full self driving" system is causing accidents (and deaths) Turn lights, rearview cameras, safety belts, all exist and are regulated to prevent the manufacturer dumping responsibility on the drivers. I emphasize "Full self driving" Tesla brand because the name was declared unlawful in California. https://www.govtech.com/policy/new-california-law-bans-tesla-from-advertising-as-fully-self-driving https://www.govtech.com/policy/new-california-law-bans-tesla...
    - timschmidt 2y ago
      > The "Full self driving" system is causing accidents (and deaths) Well yeah, and so is every other driver on the road. That is not the relevant metric. The real question is whether or not it is safer than the average driver. Or safer than great aunt Marge who doesn't have the best eyesight or hearing, but somehow still has a drivers license.
elsonrodriguez 2y ago
Tesla’s valuation isn’t based on their ability to make a BEV.
- timschmidt 2y ago
  Isn't it? Seems to be what they do.
  - jdiff 2y ago
    Tesla's valuation is based on the heady tales that Musk spins. It's not based on the fact that reality falls far short of them.
    - timschmidt 2y ago
      Engineering entirely new things isn't like making another set of silverware, there are unforeseeable complications, and all forward looking statements are estimates or projections at best. Success seems to depend most on how many times you're able to try. Maybe I'm just old, but development roadmaps are always vapor, until they aren't, which happens sometimes. Always been that way. To be clear, I'd much rather my vehicle have superhuman multisensory awareness than only superhuman awareness. And I think it's fair for regulators to involve themselves with vehicle engineering, as all our safety depends on it. I've also watched the AI day presentations about their vehicle training system, and read their disclaimer text for enabling FSD, and it seems like they're doing a lot to advance the state of the art.
      - michaelt 2y ago
        By traditional measures like profit-to-equity ratio, Tesla is overpriced coated to the likes of Toyota, Ford and BMW. And not just a little bit - it’s way overpriced. There are a bunch of possible explanations for this. One is that investors believe full self driving will come out really soon and work really well.
        2y ago

catlikesshrimp 2y ago

I can't imagine a "full self driving" car that performs worse than humans be allowed in the streets. In medicine, the ethics commitee would shot the project early. Edit: Comparing "ev vehicle" with "autonomous vehicle"

timschmidt 2y ago
I wouldn't use medicine as an example in this case. Medicine does all kinds of ill advised things because they're worse for the disease than the patient. And all kinds of things they know will kill the patient if there's opportunity to learn and improve other lives. It seems like Tesla's been pretty clear with drivers who've opted in to FSD that they're helping to test and develop a system which isn't perfect. Just off the top of the head, look up Henrietta Lacks for a notable example of how medicine has handled informed consent.
- catlikesshrimp 2y ago
  > "It seems like Tesla's been pretty clear with drivers who've opted in to FSD that they're helping to test and develop a system which isn't perfect." Strawman No matter how many contracts and disclaimers they get in their favor. The "Full self driving" system is causing accidents (and deaths) Turn lights, rearview cameras, safety belts, all exist and are regulated to prevent the manufacturer dumping responsibility on the drivers. I emphasize "Full self driving" Tesla brand because the name was declared unlawful in California. https://www.govtech.com/policy/new-california-law-bans-tesla-from-advertising-as-fully-self-driving https://www.govtech.com/policy/new-california-law-bans-tesla...
  - timschmidt 2y ago
    > The "Full self driving" system is causing accidents (and deaths) Well yeah, and so is every other driver on the road. That is not the relevant metric. The real question is whether or not it is safer than the average driver. Or safer than great aunt Marge who doesn't have the best eyesight or hearing, but somehow still has a drivers license.

elsonrodriguez 2y ago

Tesla’s valuation isn’t based on their ability to make a BEV.

timschmidt 2y ago
Isn't it? Seems to be what they do.
- jdiff 2y ago
  Tesla's valuation is based on the heady tales that Musk spins. It's not based on the fact that reality falls far short of them.
  - timschmidt 2y ago
    Engineering entirely new things isn't like making another set of silverware, there are unforeseeable complications, and all forward looking statements are estimates or projections at best. Success seems to depend most on how many times you're able to try. Maybe I'm just old, but development roadmaps are always vapor, until they aren't, which happens sometimes. Always been that way. To be clear, I'd much rather my vehicle have superhuman multisensory awareness than only superhuman awareness. And I think it's fair for regulators to involve themselves with vehicle engineering, as all our safety depends on it. I've also watched the AI day presentations about their vehicle training system, and read their disclaimer text for enabling FSD, and it seems like they're doing a lot to advance the state of the art.
    - michaelt 2y ago
      By traditional measures like profit-to-equity ratio, Tesla is overpriced coated to the likes of Toyota, Ford and BMW. And not just a little bit - it’s way overpriced. There are a bunch of possible explanations for this. One is that investors believe full self driving will come out really soon and work really well.
      - 2y ago