4 ms·

What a mediocre list of material. They all pretty much sit within a European/American spectrum of "worthy" works - there is a dominance of caucasian male think

What a mediocre list of material. They all pretty much sit within a European/American spectrum of "worthy" works - there is a dominance of caucasian male thinking embodied within this list: it's not very broad, even with the odd hat tip to a Bronte sister and Maya Angelou. Nothing from 80% of the World's population, all rooted in a classical Western school of writing theory. Dull. I also have a concern that they aren't a great foundation for a young person approaching adulthood trying to understand their place in the World and their own beliefs and values about themselves and the World they live in. As you would expect of adult literature, some of them have sex and sexuality as themes that are explored by protagonists, subplots and subtexts. While this is something we should expect literature to play a part in, and it is of course healthy for adults to consider their own feelings relating to sex and sexuality based on their own contexts and needs through art forms like literature, I'm not sure throwing that at a 9th grader feels quite right. Maybe it is. I think it depends on the child. The worst crime here though, is that this list is composed of books that are only considered good by the "educated" literarti. There aren't many page turners that will keep a younger mind engaged and excited. There's only a few that stand out as an opportunity to let a curious reader explore their changing selves through the context of an interesting imagined World - the only real point of literature - in a way that will stimulate and excite their curiosity for the World they are actually growing up in. And y'know, I'm a huge Shakespeare fan (I live in London, regular attendee of Shakespeare productions from all the usual companies), but this is leaning into some weird material. All 154 sonnets? Much Ado, Hamlet & King Lear, but no Romeo & Juliet or Macbeth? Huh. Also, I see you, Ayn Rand fans. I see you. No. The Fountainhead is not a good book, she isn't a good writer, and the philosophy she espoused is not justification for you behaving the way you do. Don't try and get grades 9-12 into your little weird cult, you unsympathetic self-absorbed weirdos.

drcwpl 2y ago
Great point on the European/American spectrum.
throwawaylsp 2y ago
Also, is there a single book on here written in the past 60 years?
mrangle 2y ago
Yet, many if not most people would like an education that is informed by educated literati. People pay big money for it, for good reason. Disadvantaged kids are absolutely starved for it, in more ways than one. Is the "worst crime" when they are exposed to it or aren't? >I also have a concern that they aren't a great foundation for a young person approaching adulthood trying to understand their place in the World and their own beliefs and values about themselves and the World they live in. Is your concern valuable because your opinion of a standard literature list is that the books are mediocre or provide a mediocre education? Why should we care that you, specifically, are concerned? Or why you, specifically, see the list as mediocre and dull? You seem to be implying that literature has to socialize kids to values (those that you prefer, I assume). You seem to be perturbed that everything that a child reads may not cater to that goal. What I see is an essay whining about how standard English lit material isn't teaching kids political material that the writer prefers. Ironic to the post-author's role as a literature critic, the post is too indirect and employs too many words toward expressing that complaint.
- PaulRobinson 2y ago
  > Yet, many if not most people would like an education that is informed by educated literati. That's because in the past showing that you're "educated" by virtue signalling a particular experience with a particular type of education would allow you an inside track to social groups and employment of value. If there is anywhere in the World where we should question the value of that, it's on a forum dedicated to helping entrepreneurs build new things and to disrupt the World away from that kind of thinking. > You seem to be implying that literature has to socialize kids to values Literature does socialize kids to values, whether you or I like it or not. It socializes adults too: that's the point of literature. We're all just stochastic parrots. Literature - and all other art - shapes what we parrot. I think that when choosing a list of eminent reading material for 9-12th graders, you're implicitly choosing a set of values for them. It should require thoughtfulness as to what you're hoping to achieve with it. I'm questioning the values presented in this list in terms of breadth, depth and appropriateness. And yes, I also happen to think a lot of it is very dull writing liked by fusty old men in universities, rather than being a list of material that makes a person of impressionable age take something of it to use for themselves as they go out into the World. It's a missed opportunity. It is therefore dull and mediocre, in my view. I'm allowed to share my view on this mater as a comment, on a site dedicated to people sharing their opinions as comments. I'm sorry that my doing so seems to have upset you. What I see in your reply is a monologue expressing how you are affronted by someone saying things you disagree with for reasons you can't explain other than you seem to find it tiresome, and you're not quite sure why that's allowed to go without comment, so here, here's your comment on it, but why on Earth did that person post that comment that is just so... so... commenty... ?

drcwpl 2y ago

Great point on the European/American spectrum.

throwawaylsp 2y ago

Also, is there a single book on here written in the past 60 years?

mrangle 2y ago

Yet, many if not most people would like an education that is informed by educated literati. People pay big money for it, for good reason. Disadvantaged kids are absolutely starved for it, in more ways than one. Is the "worst crime" when they are exposed to it or aren't? >I also have a concern that they aren't a great foundation for a young person approaching adulthood trying to understand their place in the World and their own beliefs and values about themselves and the World they live in. Is your concern valuable because your opinion of a standard literature list is that the books are mediocre or provide a mediocre education? Why should we care that you, specifically, are concerned? Or why you, specifically, see the list as mediocre and dull? You seem to be implying that literature has to socialize kids to values (those that you prefer, I assume). You seem to be perturbed that everything that a child reads may not cater to that goal. What I see is an essay whining about how standard English lit material isn't teaching kids political material that the writer prefers. Ironic to the post-author's role as a literature critic, the post is too indirect and employs too many words toward expressing that complaint.

PaulRobinson 2y ago
> Yet, many if not most people would like an education that is informed by educated literati. That's because in the past showing that you're "educated" by virtue signalling a particular experience with a particular type of education would allow you an inside track to social groups and employment of value. If there is anywhere in the World where we should question the value of that, it's on a forum dedicated to helping entrepreneurs build new things and to disrupt the World away from that kind of thinking. > You seem to be implying that literature has to socialize kids to values Literature does socialize kids to values, whether you or I like it or not. It socializes adults too: that's the point of literature. We're all just stochastic parrots. Literature - and all other art - shapes what we parrot. I think that when choosing a list of eminent reading material for 9-12th graders, you're implicitly choosing a set of values for them. It should require thoughtfulness as to what you're hoping to achieve with it. I'm questioning the values presented in this list in terms of breadth, depth and appropriateness. And yes, I also happen to think a lot of it is very dull writing liked by fusty old men in universities, rather than being a list of material that makes a person of impressionable age take something of it to use for themselves as they go out into the World. It's a missed opportunity. It is therefore dull and mediocre, in my view. I'm allowed to share my view on this mater as a comment, on a site dedicated to people sharing their opinions as comments. I'm sorry that my doing so seems to have upset you. What I see in your reply is a monologue expressing how you are affronted by someone saying things you disagree with for reasons you can't explain other than you seem to find it tiresome, and you're not quite sure why that's allowed to go without comment, so here, here's your comment on it, but why on Earth did that person post that comment that is just so... so... commenty... ?