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I was talking with friends at a party last night about their white collar jobs, and yeah, SWE was the easiest and cushiest job in the room by a mile. One frien

I was talking with friends at a party last night about their white collar jobs, and yeah, SWE was the easiest and cushiest job in the room by a mile. One friend had just finished a 3 month program to certify to fly a certain type of airliner. They probably had more intense study and testing in 3 months than most people do in a 4 year undergraduate program, SWE included.

saurik 2y ago
> I was talking with friends at a party last night about their white collar jobs, .... One friend had just finished a 3 month program to certify to fly a certain type of airliner. An airline pilot is "grey collar". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey-collar https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey-collar https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2024/02/01/gray-collar-jobs-offer-the-best-of-both-white-and-blue-collar-opportunities/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2024/02/01/gray-colla...
- dharmab 2y ago
  I don't think anyone in that room would have agreed with that term.
  - trallnag 2y ago
    Why?
    - dharmab 2y ago
      Frankly, trying to claim their jobs, which all require more education and have much higher pressure and consequences for error than mine, aren't white collar would have been rude and insulting to everyone.
      - goda90 2y ago
        Did you read the Wikipedia article? Grey collar is work that takes both intellectual and physical skill. It even includes surgery as grey collar. Thinking white collar indicates more education and pressure is the issue. There's white collar jobs that can be done by high school graduates, and blue collar jobs where life and death are literally a split second away most of the time.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        dharmab 2y ago
        The Wikipedia article that comment linked to in a later edit says it's a controversial definition and says that such professions are typically described as white collar. That seems to support my statement?
        marcusb 2y ago
        I get that people want to Categorize All The Things, but this doesn't seem like a particularly useful category. If you look at the list in the Wikipedia article, it includes "skilled tradespeople/technicians". That alone represents a pretty big chunk of work traditionally considered "blue collar."
        goda90 2y ago
        Whether you want to use a "grey collar" category or not, it's still best to avoid putting white collar on a pedestal over blue collar.
      - nkrisc 2y ago
        It's equally insulting to insinuate that some blue collar jobs don't also require more education and have much higher pressure and consequences for error than many white collar jobs. There are many blue collar jobs that require a lot of education and the consequences of errors is loss of life.
        dharmab 2y ago
        Most of the people in that room had worked blue collar jobs, worked through school, and retrained in white collar professions. I would have been incredibly rude to tell them "No, your job isn't _really_ white collar, and you haven't changed your social standing as much as you thought."
        jart 2y ago
        In the US about 60% of the workforce is "white collar". Being proud of that is like being proud of a six figure salary in California.
        dharmab 2y ago
        A person cannot be proud of their individual achievements, self improvements, working at a job they wanted, or providing for their families? Simply because many others have done the same?
        robocat 2y ago
        Are you saying 60% of California workers earn minimum six figures?
        tanjtanjtanj 2y ago
        White/Blue collar, while correlated with income, has nothing to do with social standing. A friend of mine is a construction foreman. He lives in a mansion in a suburb of a suburb, is a member of a highly regarded country club and makes more money than me. He’s blue collar.
        p3rls 2y ago
      - saurik 2y ago
        I find your definition of "insulting" really confusing, as pretty much all "white collar jobs" are "I sit on my butt all day and think lazily about things with very little pressure" jobs. They push paper and write reports on things, maybe doing some annoying math at times, but the entire concept of a "high pressure" job with "consequences for error" seems entirely at odds with white collar, and I'd personally have expected people who actually do something important on a daily basis (unlike, for example, me) might would find being categorized as "white collar" insulting?
- robocat 2y ago
  That's foolishly confusing. It breaks the original metaphor, and nobody knows it or the confusing borders of the definition - bad for communicating. Most people seem prideful to self-identify into blue-collar or white-collar. What's the meaning of the obviously next step pink-collar or black-collar?
  - eszed 2y ago
    A couple of decades ago I heard "pink-collar" used for jobs that were female-coded (nurse, teacher, personal assistant). <shrug> Yah. Profusion of terminology is confusing.
Ygg2 2y ago
> One friend had just finished a 3 month program In software by the time you finish your 3 months course the tech is considered obsolete. Not just Frontend. Backend can change on a dime. Elastic/MySQL/CockroachDB is using different license that's incompatible to AWS. We have to switch our stack! Kafka is out. It's all about Iggy! What do you mean it's different language? Learn it! Things can be hard in different ways. After coding for whole week doing garden work can almost come as a relief.
- grandempire 2y ago
  > by the time you finish your 3 months course the tech is considered obsolete. This is a meme that’s just not true. Nobody outside of the most junior applicant or most transient contractor is paid for the skills they learned this year. The most important skills last forever. Getting a good CS or EE degree is still the best way to get started.
  - dharmab 2y ago
    Exactly. In the past ten years the main differences in my professional tech stack are that I write Go instead of Java and my software runs in containers on Kubernetes instead of JAR files on CentOS. My friends have all had much more significant changes and retraining in their careers.
    - grandempire 2y ago
      Yep even within internet technology this is ridiculous. Imagine we time machined a Perl old-head from 1995 only knowing http, Unix, networking, etc. They could be invaluable at any company in a month.
      - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
        >They could be invaluable at any company in a month. That's a made up fantasy. They wouldn't get hired at all in real life. Ask me how I know. Where I live recruiters only check that your recent experience and stack match the ones on the job, otherwise your resume goes in the bin. Like Ygg2 said below, employers don't want generalists with generic CS knowledge, they want people they can immediately slot in and start crushing Jira tickets.
grandempire 2y ago
> a 3 month program to certify Industries with difficult certifications tend to protect those when awarded. It’s a grind to get in but then the employment is easy and lucrative. This is the promise of a career as a pilot or doctor. (Inb4 doctors do hard things) In contrast, industries that are lucrative but have a low barrier to entry (sales, real estate, etc) tend to have direct performance competition.
ltdanimal 2y ago
Maybe we should agree that all jobs can't be compared apples to apples. I have 3 good friends that fly for major airlines. I'm pretty familiar with the jobs. -Those tests are no joke, but saying they are more intense than a 4 year CS degree is ridiculous. Also the major airlines you can compare to FAANG, and many people study for 6+ months to pass those interviews - Airlines are union jobs. If you get them you aren't getting fired unless you try to do something really stupid. - There isn't any wondering if you are doing a good job or not , and you don't take any work home. - Regulations change or you can switch planes, but the career is leaps and bounds more static then SWE. Net net is that they are very different jobs. SWE is a great gig overall but I take issues with people saying how much harder or easier it is than other jobs. "It depends" is the answer.
- vunderba 2y ago
  Yep. OP fell into the classic trap of making generalizations across two COMPLETELY different fields despite only having knowledge in one of them. I got my PPL nearly a decade ago (obv a far cry from ATP but still) and it's ludicrous to try to compare the skill sets of computer science to piloting.
  - dghlsakjg 2y ago
    That's it. Piloting isn't easy, and you do have to study a lot, but it is rote memorization for the most part. That is a completely different kind of thing than the kind of thinking that we do in programming. One isn't better or easier than the other, just different.
deeelle 2y ago
I feel like I've experienced the opposite honestly. I'm a mechanical engineer, and my wife's old college friends consist of a bunch of silicon valley techies. Out of 10 people off the top of my head, most of them have been laid off in the past 5 years. For the ones that found new jobs (that I know) they are not satisfied with their pay. I've talked my pay vs theirs and am shocked. Almost a decade worth of experience, making what I was making 4 years into engineering, in non management positions, and worse job security. I could be mixing up programmer vs SWE. I just call them techies.
- fvrghl 2y ago
  Can you give your salary (or a range)? Seems shocking that a SV swe would make what a mech eng makes after 4 years.

saurik 2y ago

> I was talking with friends at a party last night about their white collar jobs, .... One friend had just finished a 3 month program to certify to fly a certain type of airliner. An airline pilot is "grey collar". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey-collar https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey-collar https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2024/02/01/gray-collar-jobs-offer-the-best-of-both-white-and-blue-collar-opportunities/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2024/02/01/gray-colla...

dharmab 2y ago
I don't think anyone in that room would have agreed with that term.
- trallnag 2y ago
  Why?
  - dharmab 2y ago
    Frankly, trying to claim their jobs, which all require more education and have much higher pressure and consequences for error than mine, aren't white collar would have been rude and insulting to everyone.
    - goda90 2y ago
      Did you read the Wikipedia article? Grey collar is work that takes both intellectual and physical skill. It even includes surgery as grey collar. Thinking white collar indicates more education and pressure is the issue. There's white collar jobs that can be done by high school graduates, and blue collar jobs where life and death are literally a split second away most of the time.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - dharmab 2y ago
        The Wikipedia article that comment linked to in a later edit says it's a controversial definition and says that such professions are typically described as white collar. That seems to support my statement?
      - marcusb 2y ago
        I get that people want to Categorize All The Things, but this doesn't seem like a particularly useful category. If you look at the list in the Wikipedia article, it includes "skilled tradespeople/technicians". That alone represents a pretty big chunk of work traditionally considered "blue collar."
        goda90 2y ago
        Whether you want to use a "grey collar" category or not, it's still best to avoid putting white collar on a pedestal over blue collar.
    - nkrisc 2y ago
      It's equally insulting to insinuate that some blue collar jobs don't also require more education and have much higher pressure and consequences for error than many white collar jobs. There are many blue collar jobs that require a lot of education and the consequences of errors is loss of life.
      - dharmab 2y ago
        Most of the people in that room had worked blue collar jobs, worked through school, and retrained in white collar professions. I would have been incredibly rude to tell them "No, your job isn't _really_ white collar, and you haven't changed your social standing as much as you thought."
        jart 2y ago
        In the US about 60% of the workforce is "white collar". Being proud of that is like being proud of a six figure salary in California.
        dharmab 2y ago
        A person cannot be proud of their individual achievements, self improvements, working at a job they wanted, or providing for their families? Simply because many others have done the same?
        robocat 2y ago
        Are you saying 60% of California workers earn minimum six figures?
        tanjtanjtanj 2y ago
        White/Blue collar, while correlated with income, has nothing to do with social standing. A friend of mine is a construction foreman. He lives in a mansion in a suburb of a suburb, is a member of a highly regarded country club and makes more money than me. He’s blue collar.
        p3rls 2y ago
    - saurik 2y ago
      I find your definition of "insulting" really confusing, as pretty much all "white collar jobs" are "I sit on my butt all day and think lazily about things with very little pressure" jobs. They push paper and write reports on things, maybe doing some annoying math at times, but the entire concept of a "high pressure" job with "consequences for error" seems entirely at odds with white collar, and I'd personally have expected people who actually do something important on a daily basis (unlike, for example, me) might would find being categorized as "white collar" insulting?
robocat 2y ago
That's foolishly confusing. It breaks the original metaphor, and nobody knows it or the confusing borders of the definition - bad for communicating. Most people seem prideful to self-identify into blue-collar or white-collar. What's the meaning of the obviously next step pink-collar or black-collar?
- eszed 2y ago
  A couple of decades ago I heard "pink-collar" used for jobs that were female-coded (nurse, teacher, personal assistant). <shrug> Yah. Profusion of terminology is confusing.

Ygg2 2y ago

> One friend had just finished a 3 month program In software by the time you finish your 3 months course the tech is considered obsolete. Not just Frontend. Backend can change on a dime. Elastic/MySQL/CockroachDB is using different license that's incompatible to AWS. We have to switch our stack! Kafka is out. It's all about Iggy! What do you mean it's different language? Learn it! Things can be hard in different ways. After coding for whole week doing garden work can almost come as a relief.

grandempire 2y ago
> by the time you finish your 3 months course the tech is considered obsolete. This is a meme that’s just not true. Nobody outside of the most junior applicant or most transient contractor is paid for the skills they learned this year. The most important skills last forever. Getting a good CS or EE degree is still the best way to get started.
- dharmab 2y ago
  Exactly. In the past ten years the main differences in my professional tech stack are that I write Go instead of Java and my software runs in containers on Kubernetes instead of JAR files on CentOS. My friends have all had much more significant changes and retraining in their careers.
  - grandempire 2y ago
    Yep even within internet technology this is ridiculous. Imagine we time machined a Perl old-head from 1995 only knowing http, Unix, networking, etc. They could be invaluable at any company in a month.
    - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
      >They could be invaluable at any company in a month. That's a made up fantasy. They wouldn't get hired at all in real life. Ask me how I know. Where I live recruiters only check that your recent experience and stack match the ones on the job, otherwise your resume goes in the bin. Like Ygg2 said below, employers don't want generalists with generic CS knowledge, they want people they can immediately slot in and start crushing Jira tickets.

grandempire 2y ago

> a 3 month program to certify Industries with difficult certifications tend to protect those when awarded. It’s a grind to get in but then the employment is easy and lucrative. This is the promise of a career as a pilot or doctor. (Inb4 doctors do hard things) In contrast, industries that are lucrative but have a low barrier to entry (sales, real estate, etc) tend to have direct performance competition.

ltdanimal 2y ago

Maybe we should agree that all jobs can't be compared apples to apples. I have 3 good friends that fly for major airlines. I'm pretty familiar with the jobs. -Those tests are no joke, but saying they are more intense than a 4 year CS degree is ridiculous. Also the major airlines you can compare to FAANG, and many people study for 6+ months to pass those interviews - Airlines are union jobs. If you get them you aren't getting fired unless you try to do something really stupid. - There isn't any wondering if you are doing a good job or not , and you don't take any work home. - Regulations change or you can switch planes, but the career is leaps and bounds more static then SWE. Net net is that they are very different jobs. SWE is a great gig overall but I take issues with people saying how much harder or easier it is than other jobs. "It depends" is the answer.

vunderba 2y ago
Yep. OP fell into the classic trap of making generalizations across two COMPLETELY different fields despite only having knowledge in one of them. I got my PPL nearly a decade ago (obv a far cry from ATP but still) and it's ludicrous to try to compare the skill sets of computer science to piloting.
- dghlsakjg 2y ago
  That's it. Piloting isn't easy, and you do have to study a lot, but it is rote memorization for the most part. That is a completely different kind of thing than the kind of thinking that we do in programming. One isn't better or easier than the other, just different.

deeelle 2y ago

I feel like I've experienced the opposite honestly. I'm a mechanical engineer, and my wife's old college friends consist of a bunch of silicon valley techies. Out of 10 people off the top of my head, most of them have been laid off in the past 5 years. For the ones that found new jobs (that I know) they are not satisfied with their pay. I've talked my pay vs theirs and am shocked. Almost a decade worth of experience, making what I was making 4 years into engineering, in non management positions, and worse job security. I could be mixing up programmer vs SWE. I just call them techies.

fvrghl 2y ago
Can you give your salary (or a range)? Seems shocking that a SV swe would make what a mech eng makes after 4 years.