6 ms·

> As things now stand, FreeBSD represents many of the benefits of Darwin and the open source nature of Linux. No. FreeBSD has committed the original sin of UNI

> As things now stand, FreeBSD represents many of the benefits of Darwin and the open source nature of Linux. No. FreeBSD has committed the original sin of UNIX by deliberately dropping support for all non-Intel architectures, intending to focus on optimising FreeBSD for the Intel ISA and platforms. UNIX portability and support for a diverse range of CPU's and hardware platforms are ingrained in the DNA of UNIX, however. I would argue that FreeBSD has paid the price for this decision – FreeBSD has faded into irrelevance today (despite having introduced some of the most outstanding and brilliant innovations in UNIX kernel design) – because the FreeBSD core team bet heavily on Intel remaining the only hardware platform in existence, and they missed the turn (ARM, RISC-V, and marginally MIPS in embdedded). Linux stepped in and filled in the niche very quickly, and it now runs everywhere. FreeBSD is faster but Linux is better. And it does not matter that Netflix still runs FreeBSD on its servers serving up the content at the theoretical speed of light – it is a sad living proof of FreeBSD having become a niche within a niche. P.S. I would also argue that the BSD core teams (Free/Net/Open) were a major factor in the downfall of all BSD's, due to their insular nature and, especially in the early days, a near-hostile attitude towards outsiders. «Customers» voted with their feet – and chose Linux.

pjmlp 2y ago
Not really everywhere, exactly because of GPL, most embedded FOSS OSes are either Apache or BSD based. It is not only Netflix, Sony is also quite found of cherry picking stuff from BSDs to their Orbit OS. Finally, I would assert Linux kernel as we know it today, is only relevant as the ones responsible for its creation still walk this planet, and like every project, when the creators are no longer around it will be taken into directions that no longer match the original goals.
microtonal 2y ago
I am very skeptical that it's primarily caused by the focus on Intel CPUs. FreeBSD already fell into obscurity way before RISC-V. And even though they missed the ARM router/appliance boat, Linux already overtook FreeBSD when people were primarily using Linux for x86 servers and (hobbyist) desktops. The Netcraft has confirmed: BSD is dying Slashdot meme was from the late 90ies or early 2000s. Also, if this was the main reason, we would all be using OpenBSD or NetBSD. IMO it's really a mixture of factors, some I can think of: - BSD projects were slowed down by the AT&T lawsuit in the early 90ies. - FreeBSD focused more on expert users, whereas Linux distributions focused on graphical installers and configuration tools early on. Some distributions had graphical installers at the end of the 90ies. So, Linux distributions could onboard people who were looking for a Windows alternative much more quickly. - BSD had forks very early on (FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, BSDi). The cost is much higher than multiple Linux distributions, since all BSDs maintain their own kernel and userland. - The BSDs (except BSDi) were non-profits, whereas many early Linux distributions were by for-profit companies (Red Hat, SUSE, Caldera, TurboLinux). This gave Linux a larger development and marketing budget and it made it easier to start partnerships with IBM, SAP, etc. - The BSDs projects were organized as cathedrals and more hierarchical, so made it harder for new contributors to step in. - The BSD projects provided full systems, whereas in Linux distributions would piece together systems. This made Linux development messier, but allowed quicker evolution and made it easier to adapt Linux for different applications. - The GPL put a lot more pressure on hardware companies to contribute back to the Linux kernel. Besides that there is probably also a fair amount of randomness involved.
- inkyoto 2y ago
  The AT&T lawsuits are a moot point, as they were all settled in the early 1990s. They are the sole reason why FreeBSD and NetBSD even came into existence – by forking the 4.4BSD-Lite codebase after the disputed code had been eliminated or replaced with non-encumbered reimplementations. Otherwise, we would all be running on descendants of 4.4BSD-Lite today. Linux has been running uninterruptedly on s/390 since October 1999 (31-bit support, Linux v2.2.13) and since January 2001 for 64-bit (Linux v2.4.0). Linux mainlined PPC64 support in August 2002 (Linux v2.4.19), and it has been running on ppc64 happily ever since, whereas FreeBSD dropped ppc64 support around 2008–2010. Both s/390 and ppc64 (as well as many others) are hardly hobbyist platforms, and both remain in active use today. Yes, IBM was behind each port, although the Linux community has been a net $0 beneficiary of the porting efforts. I am also of the opinion that licensing is a red herring, as BSD/MIT licences are best suited for proprietary, closed-source development. However, the real issue with proprietary development is its siloed nature, and the fact that closed-source design and development very quickly start diverging from the mainline and become prohibitively expensive to maintain in-house long-term. So the big wigs quickly figured out that they could make a sacrifice and embrace the GPL to reduce ongoing costs. Now, with the *BSD core team-led development, new contributors (including commercial entities) would be promptly shown the door, whereas the Linux community would give them the warmest welcome. That was the second major reason for the downfall of all things BSD.
  - microtonal 2y ago
    The AT&T lawsuits are a moot point, as they were all settled in the early 1990s. They are the sole reason why FreeBSD and NetBSD even came into existence – by forking the 4.4BSD-Lite codebase after the disputed code had been eliminated or replaced with non-encumbered reimplementations. Otherwise, we would all be running on descendants of 4.4BSD-Lite today. The lawsuit was settled in Feb 1994, FreeBSD was started in 1993. FreeBSD was started because development on 386BSD was too slow. It took FreeBSD until Nov 1994 until it rebased on BSD-Lite 4.4 (in FreeBSD 2.0.0). At the time 386BSD and then FreeBSD were much more mature than Linux, but it took from 1992 until the end of 1994 for the legal clarity around 386BSD/FreeBSD to clear up. So Linux had about three years to try to catch up.
_paulc 2y ago
> FreeBSD has committed the original sin of UNIX by deliberately dropping support for all non-Intel architectures, intending to focus on optimising FreeBSD for the Intel ISA and platforms. FreeBSD supports amd64 and aarch64 as Tier 1 platforms and a number of others (RiscV, PowerPC, Arm7) as Tier 2 https://www.freebsd.org/platforms/ https://www.freebsd.org/platforms/
- inkyoto 2y ago
  It is irrelevant what FreeBSD supports today. FreeBSD started demoting non-Intel platforms around 2008-2010, with FreeBSD 11 released in 2016 only supporting x86. The first non-Intel architecture support was reinstated in April 2021, with the official release of FreeBSD 13, which is over a decade of the time having been irrevocably lost. Plainly, FreeBSD has missed the boat – the first AWS Graviton CPU was released in 2018, and it ran Linux. Everything now runs Linux, but it could have been FreeBSD.
adrian_b 2y ago
Having used continuously both FreeBSD and Linux, wherever they are best suited, since around 1995 until today, I disagree. In my opinion the single factor that has contributed the most to a greater success for Linux than for FreeBSD has been the transition to multithreaded and multicore CPUs even in the cheapest computers, which has started in 2003 with the SMT Intel Pentium 4, followed in 2005 by the dual-core AMD CPUs. Around 2003, FreeBSD 4.x was the most performant and the most reliable operating system for single-core single-thread CPUs, for networking or storage applications, well above Linux or Microsoft Windows (source: at that time I was designing networking equipment and we had big server farms on which the equipment was tested, under all operating systems). However it could not use CPUs with multiple cores or threads, so on such CPUs it fell behind Linux and Windows. The support introduced in FreeBSD 5.x was only partial and many years have passed until FreeBSD had again a competitive performance on up-to-date CPUs. Other BSD variants were even slower in their conversion to multithreaded support. During those years the fraction of users of *BSD systems has diminished a lot. The second most important factor has been the much smaller set of device drivers for various add-on interface cards than for Linux. Only few hardware vendors have provided FreeBSD device drivers for their products, mostly only Intel and NVIDIA, and for the products of other vendors there have been few FreeBSD users able to reverse engineer them and write device drivers, in comparison with Linux. The support for non-x86 ISAs has also been worse than in Linux, but this was just a detail among the general support for less kinds of hardware than Linux. All this has been caused by positive feedback, FreeBSD has started with fewer users, because by the time when the lawsuits have been settled favorably for FreeBSD most potential users had already started to use Linux. Then the smaller number of users have been less capable of porting the system to new hardware devices and newer architectures, which has lead to even lower adoption. Nevertheless, there have always been various details in the *BSD systems that have been better than in Linux. A few of them have been adopted in Linux, like the software package systems that are now ubiquitous in Linux distributions, but in many cases Linux users have invented alternative solutions, which in enough cases were inferior, instead of studying the *BSD systems and see whether an already existing solution could be adopted instead of inventing yet another alternative.
- inkyoto 2y ago
  Whilst I do agree with most of your insights and the narrative of historic events, I also believe that BSD core teams were a major contributing factor to the demise of BSD's (however unpopular such an opinion might be). The first mistake was that all BSD core teams flatly refused to provide native support for the JVM back in its heyday. They eventually partially conceded and made it work using Linux emulation; however, it was riddled with bugs, crashes and other issues for years before it could run Java server apps. Yet, users clamoured to run Java applications, like, now and vociferously. The second grave mistake was to flatly refuse to support containerisation (Docker) due to not being kosher. Linux based containerisation is what underpins all cloud computing today. Again, the FreeBSD arrived too late, and it was too little. P.S. I still hold the view that FreeBSD made matters even worse by dropping support for non-Intel platforms early on – at a stage when its bleak future was already all but certain. New CPU architectures are enjoying a renaissance, whilst FreeBSD nervously sucks its thumb by the roadside of history.

pjmlp 2y ago

Not really everywhere, exactly because of GPL, most embedded FOSS OSes are either Apache or BSD based. It is not only Netflix, Sony is also quite found of cherry picking stuff from BSDs to their Orbit OS. Finally, I would assert Linux kernel as we know it today, is only relevant as the ones responsible for its creation still walk this planet, and like every project, when the creators are no longer around it will be taken into directions that no longer match the original goals.

microtonal 2y ago

I am very skeptical that it's primarily caused by the focus on Intel CPUs. FreeBSD already fell into obscurity way before RISC-V. And even though they missed the ARM router/appliance boat, Linux already overtook FreeBSD when people were primarily using Linux for x86 servers and (hobbyist) desktops. The Netcraft has confirmed: BSD is dying Slashdot meme was from the late 90ies or early 2000s. Also, if this was the main reason, we would all be using OpenBSD or NetBSD. IMO it's really a mixture of factors, some I can think of: - BSD projects were slowed down by the AT&T lawsuit in the early 90ies. - FreeBSD focused more on expert users, whereas Linux distributions focused on graphical installers and configuration tools early on. Some distributions had graphical installers at the end of the 90ies. So, Linux distributions could onboard people who were looking for a Windows alternative much more quickly. - BSD had forks very early on (FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, BSDi). The cost is much higher than multiple Linux distributions, since all BSDs maintain their own kernel and userland. - The BSDs (except BSDi) were non-profits, whereas many early Linux distributions were by for-profit companies (Red Hat, SUSE, Caldera, TurboLinux). This gave Linux a larger development and marketing budget and it made it easier to start partnerships with IBM, SAP, etc. - The BSDs projects were organized as cathedrals and more hierarchical, so made it harder for new contributors to step in. - The BSD projects provided full systems, whereas in Linux distributions would piece together systems. This made Linux development messier, but allowed quicker evolution and made it easier to adapt Linux for different applications. - The GPL put a lot more pressure on hardware companies to contribute back to the Linux kernel. Besides that there is probably also a fair amount of randomness involved.

inkyoto 2y ago
The AT&T lawsuits are a moot point, as they were all settled in the early 1990s. They are the sole reason why FreeBSD and NetBSD even came into existence – by forking the 4.4BSD-Lite codebase after the disputed code had been eliminated or replaced with non-encumbered reimplementations. Otherwise, we would all be running on descendants of 4.4BSD-Lite today. Linux has been running uninterruptedly on s/390 since October 1999 (31-bit support, Linux v2.2.13) and since January 2001 for 64-bit (Linux v2.4.0). Linux mainlined PPC64 support in August 2002 (Linux v2.4.19), and it has been running on ppc64 happily ever since, whereas FreeBSD dropped ppc64 support around 2008–2010. Both s/390 and ppc64 (as well as many others) are hardly hobbyist platforms, and both remain in active use today. Yes, IBM was behind each port, although the Linux community has been a net $0 beneficiary of the porting efforts. I am also of the opinion that licensing is a red herring, as BSD/MIT licences are best suited for proprietary, closed-source development. However, the real issue with proprietary development is its siloed nature, and the fact that closed-source design and development very quickly start diverging from the mainline and become prohibitively expensive to maintain in-house long-term. So the big wigs quickly figured out that they could make a sacrifice and embrace the GPL to reduce ongoing costs. Now, with the *BSD core team-led development, new contributors (including commercial entities) would be promptly shown the door, whereas the Linux community would give them the warmest welcome. That was the second major reason for the downfall of all things BSD.
- microtonal 2y ago
  The AT&T lawsuits are a moot point, as they were all settled in the early 1990s. They are the sole reason why FreeBSD and NetBSD even came into existence – by forking the 4.4BSD-Lite codebase after the disputed code had been eliminated or replaced with non-encumbered reimplementations. Otherwise, we would all be running on descendants of 4.4BSD-Lite today. The lawsuit was settled in Feb 1994, FreeBSD was started in 1993. FreeBSD was started because development on 386BSD was too slow. It took FreeBSD until Nov 1994 until it rebased on BSD-Lite 4.4 (in FreeBSD 2.0.0). At the time 386BSD and then FreeBSD were much more mature than Linux, but it took from 1992 until the end of 1994 for the legal clarity around 386BSD/FreeBSD to clear up. So Linux had about three years to try to catch up.

_paulc 2y ago

> FreeBSD has committed the original sin of UNIX by deliberately dropping support for all non-Intel architectures, intending to focus on optimising FreeBSD for the Intel ISA and platforms. FreeBSD supports amd64 and aarch64 as Tier 1 platforms and a number of others (RiscV, PowerPC, Arm7) as Tier 2 https://www.freebsd.org/platforms/ https://www.freebsd.org/platforms/

inkyoto 2y ago
It is irrelevant what FreeBSD supports today. FreeBSD started demoting non-Intel platforms around 2008-2010, with FreeBSD 11 released in 2016 only supporting x86. The first non-Intel architecture support was reinstated in April 2021, with the official release of FreeBSD 13, which is over a decade of the time having been irrevocably lost. Plainly, FreeBSD has missed the boat – the first AWS Graviton CPU was released in 2018, and it ran Linux. Everything now runs Linux, but it could have been FreeBSD.

adrian_b 2y ago

Having used continuously both FreeBSD and Linux, wherever they are best suited, since around 1995 until today, I disagree. In my opinion the single factor that has contributed the most to a greater success for Linux than for FreeBSD has been the transition to multithreaded and multicore CPUs even in the cheapest computers, which has started in 2003 with the SMT Intel Pentium 4, followed in 2005 by the dual-core AMD CPUs. Around 2003, FreeBSD 4.x was the most performant and the most reliable operating system for single-core single-thread CPUs, for networking or storage applications, well above Linux or Microsoft Windows (source: at that time I was designing networking equipment and we had big server farms on which the equipment was tested, under all operating systems). However it could not use CPUs with multiple cores or threads, so on such CPUs it fell behind Linux and Windows. The support introduced in FreeBSD 5.x was only partial and many years have passed until FreeBSD had again a competitive performance on up-to-date CPUs. Other BSD variants were even slower in their conversion to multithreaded support. During those years the fraction of users of *BSD systems has diminished a lot. The second most important factor has been the much smaller set of device drivers for various add-on interface cards than for Linux. Only few hardware vendors have provided FreeBSD device drivers for their products, mostly only Intel and NVIDIA, and for the products of other vendors there have been few FreeBSD users able to reverse engineer them and write device drivers, in comparison with Linux. The support for non-x86 ISAs has also been worse than in Linux, but this was just a detail among the general support for less kinds of hardware than Linux. All this has been caused by positive feedback, FreeBSD has started with fewer users, because by the time when the lawsuits have been settled favorably for FreeBSD most potential users had already started to use Linux. Then the smaller number of users have been less capable of porting the system to new hardware devices and newer architectures, which has lead to even lower adoption. Nevertheless, there have always been various details in the *BSD systems that have been better than in Linux. A few of them have been adopted in Linux, like the software package systems that are now ubiquitous in Linux distributions, but in many cases Linux users have invented alternative solutions, which in enough cases were inferior, instead of studying the *BSD systems and see whether an already existing solution could be adopted instead of inventing yet another alternative.

inkyoto 2y ago
Whilst I do agree with most of your insights and the narrative of historic events, I also believe that BSD core teams were a major contributing factor to the demise of BSD's (however unpopular such an opinion might be). The first mistake was that all BSD core teams flatly refused to provide native support for the JVM back in its heyday. They eventually partially conceded and made it work using Linux emulation; however, it was riddled with bugs, crashes and other issues for years before it could run Java server apps. Yet, users clamoured to run Java applications, like, now and vociferously. The second grave mistake was to flatly refuse to support containerisation (Docker) due to not being kosher. Linux based containerisation is what underpins all cloud computing today. Again, the FreeBSD arrived too late, and it was too little. P.S. I still hold the view that FreeBSD made matters even worse by dropping support for non-Intel platforms early on – at a stage when its bleak future was already all but certain. New CPU architectures are enjoying a renaissance, whilst FreeBSD nervously sucks its thumb by the roadside of history.