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Seems like this might be a way to reduce reliance on Canadian timber. Canada exports 45 billion CAD (USD ~30 billion) yearly, mostly to the USA. Substituting Am

Seems like this might be a way to reduce reliance on Canadian timber. Canada exports 45 billion CAD (USD ~30 billion) yearly, mostly to the USA. Substituting American timber could move some of that economic activity south of the border, reducing Canada's GDP by up to 1% and moving several hundred thousand jobs.

woodruffw 2y ago
We aren't really reliant on Canadian timber. The US produces more board-feet of timber than any other country in the world[1], and most of it is used domestically. [1]: https://www.eworldtrade.com/blog/top-10-wood-producing-countries-in-the-world/ https://www.eworldtrade.com/blog/top-10-wood-producing-count...
- onemoresoop 2y ago
  The fact that the US produces more is no proof US doesn’t rely on Canadian timber.
  - woodruffw 2y ago
    If we were dependent on Canadian timber, we probably wouldn't be exporting the exact same lumber to them[1]. They're our largest importer of lumber. The simpler explanation is that we have (or had) a free trade agreement with Canada, and it's just plain cheaper for all parties to import or export when/where the supply chain is already present. [1]: https://oec.world/en/profile/bilateral-product/wood-products/reporter/usa https://oec.world/en/profile/bilateral-product/wood-products...
    - dghlsakjg 2y ago
      Canada sends raw lumber to the US for processing. The US exports processed lumber back to Canada.
      - davely 2y ago
        There’s also the phenomenon of intra-industry trade. One big example is natural gas, which the US exports to Canada and Mexico, while paradoxically importing natural gas from Canada. Beef and pork are another example I can think of though, this has to do with specific cuts and quality for various markets.
    - bigthymer 2y ago
      It could be a distribution cost issue. It could be cheaper to use Canadian lumber in some parts of the US than it is to transport US lumber from where it is sourced to where it is needed.
      - steve_adams_86 2y ago
        Yeah, you nailed it. There are also regional specializations. Like, BC has a substantial amount of Western Red Cedar which the north western states can’t meet the demand for alone. We also send raw materials to be processed by mills in the USA. This isn’t as common as it once was. Then we also send lumber which US mills process. Some examples would be fir boards would are turned into flooring, window sash, stair treads, etc. BC produces a ton of material like this which is fodder for all kinds of mills, large and small. We try to keep that business here, but we tend to mostly dimension raw materials for export, rather than actually mill them and add any meaningful value. We import a lot of hardwood lumbers from the USA. I’ve personally bought and milled American hardwoods for furniture in my home. We have beautiful hardwoods in Canada, but there are a lot in the USA we simply don’t grow, or at least not commercially.
no_wizard 2y ago
Is there a good reason we want to do this though? It doesn’t pay very well and the work is seasonal. This feels like “adding any job no matter the job” is the goal, as opposed to investing in our citizenry through education, training and using subsidies to help with the transitioning to better paying employment like high tech manufacturing, pharmaceutical production, professional trades etc. We should really be focusing on the quality of jobs added and encourage that growth, preferably with an eye on long term stability
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  The last admin attempted that, creating well paying union jobs in clean energy and chip manufacturing. But it takes time, TSMC took 3-4 years from breaking ground to startup in Arizona. The electorate expects results immediately, which is impossible. And so, the thrashing continues. You can’t sell long term investment in the US, there is no will, but systems take time and investment to come up to speed.
  - no_wizard 2y ago
    I agree with what Biden was trying to do and the last part about the thrashing and lack of long term focus. However I don’t think it’s the electorate that wants it now the same way a petulant child wants a toy. It’s the lack of clear vision and support that makes the electorate so desperate for it to happen. If we were to actually reinvest in our citizenry (meaning the wealthy in this country would need to pay a little more in taxes) and have proper support for people in the meantime the public would be supportive and it would be better for the country as a whole. Instead it seems the US is trying to inch its way to becoming some type of modern Game of Thrones
    - tomrod 2y ago
      And we all suffer for it.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      > It’s the lack of clear vision and support that makes the electorate so desperate for it to happen. If we were to actually reinvest in our citizenry (meaning the wealthy in this country would need to pay a little more in taxes) and have proper support for people in the meantime the public would be supportive and it would be better for the country as a whole. What does this look like? Progressive taxes go up, better safety nets, those are straightforward. What does a solid middle class look like when all the cheap labor manufacturing comes back to automation (~8% of US jobs are manufacturing). The US service sector is almost 80% of the economy. We are walking into perpetual labor shortages due to structural demographics. So perhaps we don’t need “good, union jobs” and instead need to make sure people are paid enough to live comfortable lives, regardless of job (services, manufacturing, whatever). Some combination of universal healthcare (squeeze out the profit potential, cram down non care costs), public housing (see how Austria does it) to prevent investor capture, increasing the minimum wage further faster, etc.
ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 2y ago
Why does the US need to do this? > Canada exports 45 billion CAD (USD ~30 billion) yearly, mostly to the USA https://vizhub.com/curran/canadian-exports-to-us-treemap?mode=embed https://vizhub.com/curran/canadian-exports-to-us-treemap?mod... According to this (2022) it seems lower than that?

woodruffw 2y ago

We aren't really reliant on Canadian timber. The US produces more board-feet of timber than any other country in the world[1], and most of it is used domestically. [1]: https://www.eworldtrade.com/blog/top-10-wood-producing-countries-in-the-world/ https://www.eworldtrade.com/blog/top-10-wood-producing-count...

onemoresoop 2y ago
The fact that the US produces more is no proof US doesn’t rely on Canadian timber.
- woodruffw 2y ago
  If we were dependent on Canadian timber, we probably wouldn't be exporting the exact same lumber to them[1]. They're our largest importer of lumber. The simpler explanation is that we have (or had) a free trade agreement with Canada, and it's just plain cheaper for all parties to import or export when/where the supply chain is already present. [1]: https://oec.world/en/profile/bilateral-product/wood-products/reporter/usa https://oec.world/en/profile/bilateral-product/wood-products...
  - dghlsakjg 2y ago
    Canada sends raw lumber to the US for processing. The US exports processed lumber back to Canada.
    - davely 2y ago
      There’s also the phenomenon of intra-industry trade. One big example is natural gas, which the US exports to Canada and Mexico, while paradoxically importing natural gas from Canada. Beef and pork are another example I can think of though, this has to do with specific cuts and quality for various markets.
  - bigthymer 2y ago
    It could be a distribution cost issue. It could be cheaper to use Canadian lumber in some parts of the US than it is to transport US lumber from where it is sourced to where it is needed.
    - steve_adams_86 2y ago
      Yeah, you nailed it. There are also regional specializations. Like, BC has a substantial amount of Western Red Cedar which the north western states can’t meet the demand for alone. We also send raw materials to be processed by mills in the USA. This isn’t as common as it once was. Then we also send lumber which US mills process. Some examples would be fir boards would are turned into flooring, window sash, stair treads, etc. BC produces a ton of material like this which is fodder for all kinds of mills, large and small. We try to keep that business here, but we tend to mostly dimension raw materials for export, rather than actually mill them and add any meaningful value. We import a lot of hardwood lumbers from the USA. I’ve personally bought and milled American hardwoods for furniture in my home. We have beautiful hardwoods in Canada, but there are a lot in the USA we simply don’t grow, or at least not commercially.

no_wizard 2y ago

Is there a good reason we want to do this though? It doesn’t pay very well and the work is seasonal. This feels like “adding any job no matter the job” is the goal, as opposed to investing in our citizenry through education, training and using subsidies to help with the transitioning to better paying employment like high tech manufacturing, pharmaceutical production, professional trades etc. We should really be focusing on the quality of jobs added and encourage that growth, preferably with an eye on long term stability

toomuchtodo 2y ago
The last admin attempted that, creating well paying union jobs in clean energy and chip manufacturing. But it takes time, TSMC took 3-4 years from breaking ground to startup in Arizona. The electorate expects results immediately, which is impossible. And so, the thrashing continues. You can’t sell long term investment in the US, there is no will, but systems take time and investment to come up to speed.
- no_wizard 2y ago
  I agree with what Biden was trying to do and the last part about the thrashing and lack of long term focus. However I don’t think it’s the electorate that wants it now the same way a petulant child wants a toy. It’s the lack of clear vision and support that makes the electorate so desperate for it to happen. If we were to actually reinvest in our citizenry (meaning the wealthy in this country would need to pay a little more in taxes) and have proper support for people in the meantime the public would be supportive and it would be better for the country as a whole. Instead it seems the US is trying to inch its way to becoming some type of modern Game of Thrones
  - tomrod 2y ago
    And we all suffer for it.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    > It’s the lack of clear vision and support that makes the electorate so desperate for it to happen. If we were to actually reinvest in our citizenry (meaning the wealthy in this country would need to pay a little more in taxes) and have proper support for people in the meantime the public would be supportive and it would be better for the country as a whole. What does this look like? Progressive taxes go up, better safety nets, those are straightforward. What does a solid middle class look like when all the cheap labor manufacturing comes back to automation (~8% of US jobs are manufacturing). The US service sector is almost 80% of the economy. We are walking into perpetual labor shortages due to structural demographics. So perhaps we don’t need “good, union jobs” and instead need to make sure people are paid enough to live comfortable lives, regardless of job (services, manufacturing, whatever). Some combination of universal healthcare (squeeze out the profit potential, cram down non care costs), public housing (see how Austria does it) to prevent investor capture, increasing the minimum wage further faster, etc.

ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 2y ago

Why does the US need to do this? > Canada exports 45 billion CAD (USD ~30 billion) yearly, mostly to the USA https://vizhub.com/curran/canadian-exports-to-us-treemap?mode=embed https://vizhub.com/curran/canadian-exports-to-us-treemap?mod... According to this (2022) it seems lower than that?