4 ms·

I use them daily, in not being some poor serf, by not risking famine every year, and not living in a land beleaguered by war. Those things are sort of like hav

I use them daily, in not being some poor serf, by not risking famine every year, and not living in a land beleaguered by war. Those things are sort of like having competent IT security. If they are doing everything right, they will seem like they aren't doing anything at all, but when they are gone all of a destruction and doom is always just a day away.

surgical_fire 2y ago
Sometimes I think that the libertarians should be condemned to live in their dream society, without laws, regulations, public service, etc. It gets tiresome listening to their "taxes are theft" bullshit.
- card_zero 2y ago
  Why are they not collected through consent?
  - krapp 2y ago
    No one would consent.
    - grandempire 2y ago
      There are many community groups historically funded through consent with seemingly no direct kickbacks, including churches.
      - krapp 2y ago
        We're not talking about communities, we're talking about modern countries. Most people aren't willing to pay out of pocket for anything that doesn't benefit them directly, which is why the reason most people give to charity is that its tax deductible. A few might give out of the kindness of their heart or some sense of civic duty, but not enough.
        grandempire 2y ago
        I agree that the primary function of taxation is to fund things that have serious free rider problems otherwise. But part of the problem is the lack of community structure and expectation that we can centrally fund and manage problems. There are whole communities in the US that lived for generations on civic duty and kindness of heart.
        krapp 2y ago
        >There are whole communities in the US that lived for generations on civic duty and kindness of heart. But not entirely. Living in the US means they take advantage of the American capitalist system and infrastructure to some degree, which means they benefit from taxation. And obviously they pay their taxes otherwise the men with guns would have shown up. And again, the free rider problem is intractable at scale. You can't simply build "community structure" and expect everyone to buy in. If that were possible, we wouldn't need laws at all, we could just expect everyone to play nice. And the fact that most people play nice by default doesn't imply laws aren't necessary. And we can centrally fund and manage problems. That does work. Look at the numerous public work projects in the US like Hoover Dam, NASA, interstate highways, modern agriculture, the internet. None of that happens if all you can depend on is kindness of heart.
        grandempire 2y ago
        All good things come from God and God’s greatness shines of all the earth, and anything that ever happens is because of God, but for you it’s the State. Just because a good thing exists does not mean I’m indebted to it. The city may build a really nice park on the other side of town. That doesn’t mean I’m being subsidized or dependent. The people of Maine did not benefit from the Hoover Dam. > You can't simply build "community structure" and expect everyone to buy in. You’re right that we can’t magically recreate communities that were destroyed, but this is actually the default human behavior. Small community cooperate together for common good. > If that were possible, we wouldn't need laws at all This doesn’t follow. People’s short term behavior may not align with their long term values. Crime/sin is traditionally when your passions get the best of you.
  - AngryData 2y ago
    What kind of consent? On an individual basis? Because the assholes won't pay putting more burden on those who do while the assholes use the further power/capital disparity to corrupt society in their favor. Governmentally we have many times, every time a new government is formed, and there is always the option of the people tearing it all down when it stops doing what it is suppose to when all the other alternatives are made impossible. Also every society that concentrates power into a larger government through taxation will inevitably invade and destroy or subjugate those who decided they wanted the smallest bare minimum of community support and collective services that leaves them vulnerable.
    - card_zero 2y ago
      Yes, on an individual basis. I don't think I like the sound of group consent. Hi! Your peer group has decided that you consent to xyz.
      - surgical_fire 2y ago
        Someone never understood the tragedy of the commons.
        card_zero 2y ago
        Nobody ever understood the tragedy of the commons.
grandempire 2y ago
So you’re taking the position that the government budget mostly consists of good things that most people would agree are good value? Why did you lead with police and parks instead?

surgical_fire 2y ago

Sometimes I think that the libertarians should be condemned to live in their dream society, without laws, regulations, public service, etc. It gets tiresome listening to their "taxes are theft" bullshit.

card_zero 2y ago
Why are they not collected through consent?
- krapp 2y ago
  No one would consent.
  - grandempire 2y ago
    There are many community groups historically funded through consent with seemingly no direct kickbacks, including churches.
    - krapp 2y ago
      We're not talking about communities, we're talking about modern countries. Most people aren't willing to pay out of pocket for anything that doesn't benefit them directly, which is why the reason most people give to charity is that its tax deductible. A few might give out of the kindness of their heart or some sense of civic duty, but not enough.
      - grandempire 2y ago
        I agree that the primary function of taxation is to fund things that have serious free rider problems otherwise. But part of the problem is the lack of community structure and expectation that we can centrally fund and manage problems. There are whole communities in the US that lived for generations on civic duty and kindness of heart.
        krapp 2y ago
        >There are whole communities in the US that lived for generations on civic duty and kindness of heart. But not entirely. Living in the US means they take advantage of the American capitalist system and infrastructure to some degree, which means they benefit from taxation. And obviously they pay their taxes otherwise the men with guns would have shown up. And again, the free rider problem is intractable at scale. You can't simply build "community structure" and expect everyone to buy in. If that were possible, we wouldn't need laws at all, we could just expect everyone to play nice. And the fact that most people play nice by default doesn't imply laws aren't necessary. And we can centrally fund and manage problems. That does work. Look at the numerous public work projects in the US like Hoover Dam, NASA, interstate highways, modern agriculture, the internet. None of that happens if all you can depend on is kindness of heart.
        grandempire 2y ago
        All good things come from God and God’s greatness shines of all the earth, and anything that ever happens is because of God, but for you it’s the State. Just because a good thing exists does not mean I’m indebted to it. The city may build a really nice park on the other side of town. That doesn’t mean I’m being subsidized or dependent. The people of Maine did not benefit from the Hoover Dam. > You can't simply build "community structure" and expect everyone to buy in. You’re right that we can’t magically recreate communities that were destroyed, but this is actually the default human behavior. Small community cooperate together for common good. > If that were possible, we wouldn't need laws at all This doesn’t follow. People’s short term behavior may not align with their long term values. Crime/sin is traditionally when your passions get the best of you.
- AngryData 2y ago
  What kind of consent? On an individual basis? Because the assholes won't pay putting more burden on those who do while the assholes use the further power/capital disparity to corrupt society in their favor. Governmentally we have many times, every time a new government is formed, and there is always the option of the people tearing it all down when it stops doing what it is suppose to when all the other alternatives are made impossible. Also every society that concentrates power into a larger government through taxation will inevitably invade and destroy or subjugate those who decided they wanted the smallest bare minimum of community support and collective services that leaves them vulnerable.
  - card_zero 2y ago
    Yes, on an individual basis. I don't think I like the sound of group consent. Hi! Your peer group has decided that you consent to xyz.
    - surgical_fire 2y ago
      Someone never understood the tragedy of the commons.
      - card_zero 2y ago
        Nobody ever understood the tragedy of the commons.

grandempire 2y ago

So you’re taking the position that the government budget mostly consists of good things that most people would agree are good value? Why did you lead with police and parks instead?