4 ms·

> The whale is a fish thing isn't what I had in mind, iirc that's a solid argument that still mostly holds up. You're also of the opinion that whales are fish?

by _2d30 2y ago

giraffe_lady 2y ago
It's more that, as I understand it, "fish" isn't a coherent phylogenetic category so much as a convention-based descriptive grouping of certain characteristics. I don't think of whales as fish, no. But an exclusion based on eg tail fin orientation or lack of gills is based on convention rather than strict taxonomic practices. So if someone wants to weigh the characteristics differently and include whales in the term fish I would at least hear them out. Different category but well explained here https://eukaryotewritesblog.com/2021/05/02/theres-no-such-thing-as-a-tree/ https://eukaryotewritesblog.com/2021/05/02/theres-no-such-th...
- lostlogin 2y ago
  I know it’s not the point, but how does a flounder get categorised in this system? Are they vertical or horizontal? When they swim it usually has their tail horizontal.
- TylerE 2y ago
  As the saying goes, there’s no such thing as a fish - that is, there is no reasonable definition that both strongly selects for fish was, while rejecting non-fish.
o11c 2y ago
It's utterly nonsensical to think that millennia of "fish swim" should be thrown out in favor of a century of "fish share DNA".
- inglor_cz 2y ago
  Hmm, my wife likes to swim, I better start calling her my fish. Whales need to take breaths on the surface, unlike fish, which can stay underwater basically indefinitely. Without that difference, whaling would be a lot more complicated, if not outright impossible, especially in the 19th century - you just can't catch a huge solitary animal in an ocean on purpose if it doesn't have to surface from time to time. Or only with sheer luck. Even the ancient whalers were aware of the fact that whales need to breathe, and thus, at the very least, could say "well, these are some rather special fish, you know".
  - tekla 2y ago
    There are fish that can breathe normal air such as the gar.
lechatonnoir 1y ago
I think he's probably talking about something like this https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/21/the-categories-were-made-for-man-not-man-for-the-categories/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/21/the-categories-were-ma...

> The whale is a fish thing isn't what I had in mind, iirc that's a solid argument that still mostly holds up. You're also of the opinion that whales are fish?

by _2d30 2y ago

> The whale is a fish thing isn't what I had in mind, iirc that's a solid argument that still mostly holds up. You're also of the opinion that whales are fish?

giraffe_lady 2y ago

It's more that, as I understand it, "fish" isn't a coherent phylogenetic category so much as a convention-based descriptive grouping of certain characteristics. I don't think of whales as fish, no. But an exclusion based on eg tail fin orientation or lack of gills is based on convention rather than strict taxonomic practices. So if someone wants to weigh the characteristics differently and include whales in the term fish I would at least hear them out. Different category but well explained here https://eukaryotewritesblog.com/2021/05/02/theres-no-such-thing-as-a-tree/ https://eukaryotewritesblog.com/2021/05/02/theres-no-such-th...

lostlogin 2y ago
I know it’s not the point, but how does a flounder get categorised in this system? Are they vertical or horizontal? When they swim it usually has their tail horizontal.
TylerE 2y ago
As the saying goes, there’s no such thing as a fish - that is, there is no reasonable definition that both strongly selects for fish was, while rejecting non-fish.

o11c 2y ago

It's utterly nonsensical to think that millennia of "fish swim" should be thrown out in favor of a century of "fish share DNA".

inglor_cz 2y ago
Hmm, my wife likes to swim, I better start calling her my fish. Whales need to take breaths on the surface, unlike fish, which can stay underwater basically indefinitely. Without that difference, whaling would be a lot more complicated, if not outright impossible, especially in the 19th century - you just can't catch a huge solitary animal in an ocean on purpose if it doesn't have to surface from time to time. Or only with sheer luck. Even the ancient whalers were aware of the fact that whales need to breathe, and thus, at the very least, could say "well, these are some rather special fish, you know".
- tekla 2y ago
  There are fish that can breathe normal air such as the gar.

lechatonnoir 1y ago

I think he's probably talking about something like this https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/21/the-categories-were-made-for-man-not-man-for-the-categories/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/21/the-categories-were-ma...