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> Doing a blanket tariff on (e.g.) Bangladesh and Sri Lanka—which hits clothing (see Nike, Adidas stock prices)—is not helpful. Why is the US interested in maki

> Doing a blanket tariff on (e.g.) Bangladesh and Sri Lanka—which hits clothing (see Nike, Adidas stock prices)—is not helpful. Why is the US interested in making sneakers and t-shirts? Why shouldn't the US be interested in being able to clothe its own people?

ceejayoz 2y ago
For the same reasons most of us don't sew our own clothes. We have better things to do, and others will do it faster, cheaper, and better than we can.
- lliamander 2y ago
  > cheaper One major reason why it is cheaper to make these clothes overseas is because we have such a stringent regulatory regime for worker and environmental protections, and using foreign manufacturers is essentially a loophole through those regulations. Whether those regulations are useful or not is entirely beside the point: if they are good, then moving manufacturing over to lower regulation countries is bad and we should impose tariffs on all of those goods. If those regulations are bad, then we should just repeal them and let domestic manufacturers compete on an even playing field.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    We grow corn in Kansas and not NYC's Central Park. (Roughly) the same regulatory regime; very different costs of living and available workforces.
    - lliamander 2y ago
      Yes, there will still be specialization and trade in a balanced regulatory environment.
      - ceejayoz 2y ago
        Precisely. As such, Americans don't make many of their own clothes.
        lliamander 2y ago
        No. We don't make our own clothes because: 1. The regulatory burden on manufacturing is much higher here than foreign countries 2. Those foreign countries have a deliberate policy of maintaining a trade surplus in order to improve their own industrial capacity at the expense of our own I would absolutely expect that even in a more level trade environment there would still be some foreign manufacturing of clothes. But what we are seeing is not the happy accident of the free market, but the result of very deliberate government policy.
        ceejayoz 2y ago
        You've left out: 3. American workers have more productive uses of their time.
        lliamander 2y ago
        No, I did not. Are you actually going to engage with the arguments I have made?
        ceejayoz 2y ago
        You've not made any, just assertions.
throw0101c 2y ago
> Why shouldn't the US be interested in being able to clothe its own people? There are plenty of made-in-USA clothing companies: what do those items (shoes, shirts, pants, underwear, coats, etc) cost compared to the same items made not-in-USA? How much do you want your citizens spending on such items compared to other things? Do you want them to spend 3-5% on apparel: * https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/spending-on-clothing-and-footwear-falls-below-3-of-disposable-income-for-first-time-in-u-s-history/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/spending-on-clothing-and-foot... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_consumption_expenditures_price_index#Comparison_to_CPI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_consumption_expenditu... Or 10%? More? Most people have a finite income, so whatever they're spending on clothing they're not spending on something else (which could include services). How important is making clothing as an industry compared to something else? Yes, manufacturing is important, but given that a country has a finite population it may be prudent to be more focused: > Democratic countries’ economies are mainly set up as free market economies with redistribution, because this is what maximizes living standards in peacetime. In a free market economy, if a foreign country wants to sell you cheap cars, you let them do it, and you allocate your own productive resources to something more profitable instead. If China is willing to sell you brand-new electric vehicles for $10,000, why should you turn them down? Just make B2B SaaS and advertising platforms and chat apps, sell them for a high profit margin, and drive a Chinese car. > Except then a war comes, and suddenly you find that B2B SaaS and advertising platforms and chat apps aren’t very useful for defending your freedoms. Oops! The right time to worry about manufacturing would have been years before the war, except you weren’t able to anticipate and prepare for the future. Manufacturing doesn’t just support war — in a very real way, it’s a war in and of itself. * https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/manufacturing-is-a-war-now https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/manufacturing-is-a-war-now Do you want people operating sewing machines or (say) welders?
- dingnuts 2y ago
  The garment industry is an interesting one to make a cost argument about. It produces an immense amount of ecological damage and human suffering to support prices so low that even poor people have way more clothing than they need. The garment industry in Southeast Asia has some of the worst working conditions in the world, comparable without cynicism to modern day slavery. Of all the things that I would like to see taxed, the garment industry is absolutely one. Yes, it would be worth it to pay more per item of clothing if it was created by someone with human rights. Super worth it. Please tax the likes of Vietnam and kill fast fashion brands like Shien. The world would be 100% better. In general I think these tariffs are terrible but taking the side of fast fashion is pretty much always morally wrong.
dttze 2y ago
Making clothes more expensive for everyone is helping that how?
- leereeves 2y ago
  The reason it makes the clothes more expensive is that US workers are paid more, work in better conditions, and have more rights. That's worth spending more to support.
  - dttze 2y ago
    I'm talking about jacking up tariffs immediately, costing US consumers right now, with false promises of mfg magically popping up immediately to replace it. The government needs to directly fund and standup industrial infrastructure in the way China does with their SEZ to actually bring the jobs here, and we know that that will never happen.
    - leereeves 2y ago
      Either way clothing will cost more. Unless China (or another supplier) chooses to pay the tariffs to make their products more competitive. I've heard allegations that they do sometimes export products below cost.
      - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
        But the clothing costs more without the benefit of supporting countries with stronger workers' rights. Isn't that the worst of both worlds?
        leereeves 2y ago
        The extra costs support the US government, so opinions will vary. But that's the pessimistic view. The ideal outcome is making import costs high enough that US manufacturing can compete without subsidies.

ceejayoz 2y ago

For the same reasons most of us don't sew our own clothes. We have better things to do, and others will do it faster, cheaper, and better than we can.

lliamander 2y ago
> cheaper One major reason why it is cheaper to make these clothes overseas is because we have such a stringent regulatory regime for worker and environmental protections, and using foreign manufacturers is essentially a loophole through those regulations. Whether those regulations are useful or not is entirely beside the point: if they are good, then moving manufacturing over to lower regulation countries is bad and we should impose tariffs on all of those goods. If those regulations are bad, then we should just repeal them and let domestic manufacturers compete on an even playing field.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  We grow corn in Kansas and not NYC's Central Park. (Roughly) the same regulatory regime; very different costs of living and available workforces.
  - lliamander 2y ago
    Yes, there will still be specialization and trade in a balanced regulatory environment.
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      Precisely. As such, Americans don't make many of their own clothes.
      - lliamander 2y ago
        No. We don't make our own clothes because: 1. The regulatory burden on manufacturing is much higher here than foreign countries 2. Those foreign countries have a deliberate policy of maintaining a trade surplus in order to improve their own industrial capacity at the expense of our own I would absolutely expect that even in a more level trade environment there would still be some foreign manufacturing of clothes. But what we are seeing is not the happy accident of the free market, but the result of very deliberate government policy.
        ceejayoz 2y ago
        You've left out: 3. American workers have more productive uses of their time.
        lliamander 2y ago
        No, I did not. Are you actually going to engage with the arguments I have made?
        ceejayoz 2y ago
        You've not made any, just assertions.

throw0101c 2y ago

> Why shouldn't the US be interested in being able to clothe its own people? There are plenty of made-in-USA clothing companies: what do those items (shoes, shirts, pants, underwear, coats, etc) cost compared to the same items made not-in-USA? How much do you want your citizens spending on such items compared to other things? Do you want them to spend 3-5% on apparel: * https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/spending-on-clothing-and-footwear-falls-below-3-of-disposable-income-for-first-time-in-u-s-history/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/spending-on-clothing-and-foot... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_consumption_expenditures_price_index#Comparison_to_CPI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_consumption_expenditu... Or 10%? More? Most people have a finite income, so whatever they're spending on clothing they're not spending on something else (which could include services). How important is making clothing as an industry compared to something else? Yes, manufacturing is important, but given that a country has a finite population it may be prudent to be more focused: > Democratic countries’ economies are mainly set up as free market economies with redistribution, because this is what maximizes living standards in peacetime. In a free market economy, if a foreign country wants to sell you cheap cars, you let them do it, and you allocate your own productive resources to something more profitable instead. If China is willing to sell you brand-new electric vehicles for $10,000, why should you turn them down? Just make B2B SaaS and advertising platforms and chat apps, sell them for a high profit margin, and drive a Chinese car. > Except then a war comes, and suddenly you find that B2B SaaS and advertising platforms and chat apps aren’t very useful for defending your freedoms. Oops! The right time to worry about manufacturing would have been years before the war, except you weren’t able to anticipate and prepare for the future. Manufacturing doesn’t just support war — in a very real way, it’s a war in and of itself. * https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/manufacturing-is-a-war-now https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/manufacturing-is-a-war-now Do you want people operating sewing machines or (say) welders?

dingnuts 2y ago
The garment industry is an interesting one to make a cost argument about. It produces an immense amount of ecological damage and human suffering to support prices so low that even poor people have way more clothing than they need. The garment industry in Southeast Asia has some of the worst working conditions in the world, comparable without cynicism to modern day slavery. Of all the things that I would like to see taxed, the garment industry is absolutely one. Yes, it would be worth it to pay more per item of clothing if it was created by someone with human rights. Super worth it. Please tax the likes of Vietnam and kill fast fashion brands like Shien. The world would be 100% better. In general I think these tariffs are terrible but taking the side of fast fashion is pretty much always morally wrong.

dttze 2y ago

Making clothes more expensive for everyone is helping that how?

leereeves 2y ago
The reason it makes the clothes more expensive is that US workers are paid more, work in better conditions, and have more rights. That's worth spending more to support.
- dttze 2y ago
  I'm talking about jacking up tariffs immediately, costing US consumers right now, with false promises of mfg magically popping up immediately to replace it. The government needs to directly fund and standup industrial infrastructure in the way China does with their SEZ to actually bring the jobs here, and we know that that will never happen.
  - leereeves 2y ago
    Either way clothing will cost more. Unless China (or another supplier) chooses to pay the tariffs to make their products more competitive. I've heard allegations that they do sometimes export products below cost.
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
      But the clothing costs more without the benefit of supporting countries with stronger workers' rights. Isn't that the worst of both worlds?
      - leereeves 2y ago
        The extra costs support the US government, so opinions will vary. But that's the pessimistic view. The ideal outcome is making import costs high enough that US manufacturing can compete without subsidies.