6 ms·

> Many countries completely ban non citizens from joining political protests, even ostensibly western countries. Which ones?

immibis 2y ago
Germany bans pro-Palestine protests (officially they're still legal, but they've been arresting people since it began and they've just started deporting people for participating in completely legal protests) but I think that's a slightly different criterion than the one you asked for.
- 3D30497420 2y ago
  Correct. Here's a DW video on it: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-deport-pro-palestinian-protesters/video-72132041 https://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-deport-pro-palestinian-prot... There is a fight over this being done with or without due process.
  - mpweiher 2y ago
    Incorrect: "They are accused of indirectly supporting Hamas, which is designated as a terrorist organization in Germany." 2nd sentence from your link. Supporting terrorist organizations is not legal in Germany. Supporting terrorist organizations is not the same a being Pro-Palestinian. Unless you think that all Palestinians are terrorists, which I do not.
    - immibis 2y ago
      Yes, and Germany considers protests against anything Israel does in Gaza to be support for Hamas, which is designated as a terrorist organization in Germany. That's why I told you: officially, protesting is legal, but they still arrest and deport people for protesting. This newspaper may not think they're the same thing, but the police do.
      - mpweiher 2y ago
        > Germany considers protests against anything Israel does in Gaza to be support for Hamas This is patently untrue. I live in Berlin and constantly see protests. Far from being too strict, the police are way to lax in enforcing applicable laws. The Jewish community in Berlin is scared, because they feel completely left alone by the authorities. We have people running around freely in effin Berlin, right next to the Holocaust memorial calling of the extermination of the Jewish state and all Jews. And virtually nothing is being done about it. It's perverse.
        immibis 2y ago
        I live in Berlin, I've visited some protests, I constantly see police arrest people. I visited a camp in front of the Reichstag building. The organizers told me about ridiculous police behaviour. Then I saw some ridiculous police behaviour at that camp. Arrests and intimidation tactics. The police banned speaking any language other than German or English. I saw them take away some people in handcuffs for the crime of speaking Arabic. I know that was the reason, because the police told the leaders, who told the whole camp. I saw them "patrol" by walking in random straight lines through the camp, pushing away everyone who happens to be in the path of that straight line even if they could easily walk around. I did not see any threatening behaviour from the camp members, just holding signs and chanting, as you would expect at any legal protest. I've observed street marchse too. Police are required to let these happen provided they are registered in advance. Nonetheless I see police barge into crowds (again being violent against everyone who happens to be standing in the straight line between A and B), grab someone seemingly at random, and haul them off to who knows where. One time I tried to film such a thing happening, and was shouted at, then kicked until I put my phone down, so. I won't be releasing that video for fear of further retaliation. I don't believe Jews are feeling scared, but I don't actually know any Jews (or Muslims), so feel free to prove me wrong. Every synagogue has a permanent police watch outside it, even before the 2023 escalation of the Gaza genocide, and I don't hear of any crimes or attempted crimes there. Now look at the other side, and it's people getting assaulted, arrested and deported for protesting. I sure would be scared if I believed that Netanyahu did something wrong, because if the government thought I disliked Israel's genocide on Gaza, it certainly seems like I could be deported for that. Interestingly enough, I heard of one cultural institution (but I forgot which) that's hosting a lot of anti-genocide events... because the government had already set a date for it to shut down, so it had nothing to lose. Something in the general vicinity of Möckernbrücke. There was another cultural institution somewhere in Neukölln that was shut down, immediately, following the choice to host one speech one time about Gaza. And there was a *Jewish center* that was raided by police for hosting a Yanis Varoufakis speech by video call. If Jewish centers should be afraid of anything right now, it seems to be the police. It makes me angry when people continually deny police misbehaviour that I have seen with my own eyes, heard with my ears and felt on my skin. I have to wonder if it's a particular kind of terminal online-ness where things one reads on the internet feel absolutely true because it's the closest to truth that one ever engages with. The alternative is that I'm clinically insane and shouldn't trust my own lying eyes, which I don't think is true. I never go to protests any more, even to observe, because I am afraid of the police. Most of the pro-Palestine protestors (as opposed to the COVID-19 protestors) I've ever talked with have seemed like relatively reasonable people, and I never saw violence instigated by anyone other than the police. Unless, of course, you believe that signs and chants are violent terrorism, as Germany apparently does. Someone told me it's not Germany-wide, and not federal thing, but specifically the Berlin police who are ruthless with Palestine protests, and that there's no problem with Palestine protests in any other part of Germany. I wouldn't know, since my eyeballs don't reach Germany-wide. Given the disconnect between media and observed reality in Berlin, I don't rely on the media for information about how the rest of Germany is doing on this issue. What is your rebuttal?
- thyristan 2y ago
  While the protests are per se not illegal, the people arrested aren't accused of just protesting, they are accused of supporting a terrorist organisation. The right to free speech isn't as all-encompassing in Germany as it is in the USA, so shouting the wrong slogans can very well get you in trouble. Also, the right to protest in public only applies to German citizens: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gg/art_8.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gg/art_8.html Foreigners are usually still free to do it, but they don't have a constitutionally protected right to public protests.
  - immibis 2y ago
    > While the protests are per se not illegal, the people arrested aren't accused of just protesting, they are accused of supporting a terrorist organisation. The right to free speech isn't as all-encompassing in Germany as it is in the USA, so shouting the wrong slogans can very well get you in trouble. Yes, that's correct. Anyone who protests and grabs the attention of the police is accused of supporting a terrorist organisation. That's why I added the information that although they protest completely legally, they still get arrested and deported. The pretense for the arrest and deportation is that protesting to stop the carpet bombing of Gaza supports Hamas, which is designated as a terrorist organisation.
    - thyristan 2y ago
      Thousands for weeks on end protested the carpet bombing of Gaza, Germans as well as Foreigners. Many respectable foreign and German organisations invited to participate and organized those protests. And only very few of those protesting were arrested or even investigated. Those who were usually did something more than protest, like showing support for terrorist organizations like Hamas or ISIS by showing the respective flag, harassing counter-protesters, shouting controversial slogans like "from the river to the sea..." (which is thought to imply destroying Israel and therefore "Volksverhetzung", although I'm not sure if the courts are already through with that one) or just plainly calling for the killing of Jews or the eradication of Israel. Actually, the police was very patient and tame with those protests, too patient and too tame for the taste of many. A common, not totally unjustified opinion was that if those protests were just Germans protesting about a strictly German issue (like "Stuttgart21" or "Startbahn West" back in the day) and behaving like the pro-Palestine protestors did, there would have been riot police tear-gassing and bludgeoning everyone within half an hour.
- mpweiher 2y ago
  No. What is not allowed is calls for genocide ("From the river to the sea") and support for terrorist organizations. And yes, if you are a guest in a country, supporting genocide and terrorism can get you deported. But the police has been extremely lax in enforcement. These protests still basically always have these characteristics and there is no action by the police. It is pathetic.
  - immibis 2y ago
    Protesting against Israel's carpet bombing and mass starvation of civilians, targeted missile strikes and sniper strikes on journalists (more than any other war in history and there might not be any left by now) and so on is considered to be supporting Hamas. Because if you weren't a Hamas terrorist, you'd support everything Israel says it does to get rid of Hamas. That six year old girl and the paramedics trying to save her? All Hamas. The flour massacre? Hamas. Journalists? Hamas. I'm skeptical that you haven't seen this rhetoric constantly since Oct 7 2023. Are you aware that people were chanting "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free", because it rhymes, and they were not chanting "from the river to the sea, let's gas all the Jews again"?
    - mpweiher 2y ago
      > is considered to be supporting Hamas. No it is not. Even if it almost certainly is. These protests used to run almost daily, and were often allowed to proceed even if actual calls for genocide were included. And of course you are also wrong on the content: those accusations are largely untrue, and Israel is an absolute leader in avoiding civilian casualties in urban combat, achieving a 1:1 ratio of civilian to combatant deaths, whereas the world average is 10:1. And this despite Hamas's openly stated and obviously carried out policy of creating as many civilian casualties in their own population as possible. And no, calling for genocide does not become legal if it rhymes.
switch007 2y ago
In the UK we don't discriminate based on citizenship, or even if the protests are political or not ! Protest marches - no wait, the term is less specific: "public processions" - can have restrictions imposed for basically any reason. Restrictions can be imposed if (this is just a selection): - They basically generate noise - May cause prolonged disruption of access to any essential goods or any essential service - May cause the prevention of, or a hindrance that is more than minor to, the carrying out of day-to-day activities - May cause the prevention of, or a delay that is more than minor to, the delivery of a time-sensitive product to consumers of that product Not forgetting there are probably 10-20 general Public Order Offences that can be used against a person, such as wilful obstruction of a highway or public nuisance. Then we also have Serious Disruption Prevention Orders (SDPOs). SDPOs are civil orders that enable courts to place conditions or restrictions on an individual aged over 18 (such as restrictions on where they can go and when) with the aim of preventing them from engaging in protest-related activity that could cause disruption. Breaching an SDPO is a criminal offence. And the cherry on the cake: by law you must tell the police in writing 6 days before a public march if you're the organiser (which is to say, get the police's permission)
- ratatoskrt 2y ago
  Laws around protests here in the UK are certainly problematic, but I haven't heard of ant cases where this would have been specifically used against students from abroad.
- worik 2y ago
  The subjects of His Majesty have never been free
  - vixen99 2y ago
    Technically we're subjects but the King has zero executive powers. His soft powers are perhaps another topic. Point being we're in effect, citizens and subject to the (very variable) laws of the country like any other country. Currently freedom of expression in the UK is highly problematic but that's a temporary issue with the current administration. No subjects or citizens in any country are ever free as in free beer. So I suppose you're correct.

immibis 2y ago

Germany bans pro-Palestine protests (officially they're still legal, but they've been arresting people since it began and they've just started deporting people for participating in completely legal protests) but I think that's a slightly different criterion than the one you asked for.

3D30497420 2y ago
Correct. Here's a DW video on it: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-deport-pro-palestinian-protesters/video-72132041 https://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-deport-pro-palestinian-prot... There is a fight over this being done with or without due process.
- mpweiher 2y ago
  Incorrect: "They are accused of indirectly supporting Hamas, which is designated as a terrorist organization in Germany." 2nd sentence from your link. Supporting terrorist organizations is not legal in Germany. Supporting terrorist organizations is not the same a being Pro-Palestinian. Unless you think that all Palestinians are terrorists, which I do not.
  - immibis 2y ago
    Yes, and Germany considers protests against anything Israel does in Gaza to be support for Hamas, which is designated as a terrorist organization in Germany. That's why I told you: officially, protesting is legal, but they still arrest and deport people for protesting. This newspaper may not think they're the same thing, but the police do.
    - mpweiher 2y ago
      > Germany considers protests against anything Israel does in Gaza to be support for Hamas This is patently untrue. I live in Berlin and constantly see protests. Far from being too strict, the police are way to lax in enforcing applicable laws. The Jewish community in Berlin is scared, because they feel completely left alone by the authorities. We have people running around freely in effin Berlin, right next to the Holocaust memorial calling of the extermination of the Jewish state and all Jews. And virtually nothing is being done about it. It's perverse.
      - immibis 2y ago
        I live in Berlin, I've visited some protests, I constantly see police arrest people. I visited a camp in front of the Reichstag building. The organizers told me about ridiculous police behaviour. Then I saw some ridiculous police behaviour at that camp. Arrests and intimidation tactics. The police banned speaking any language other than German or English. I saw them take away some people in handcuffs for the crime of speaking Arabic. I know that was the reason, because the police told the leaders, who told the whole camp. I saw them "patrol" by walking in random straight lines through the camp, pushing away everyone who happens to be in the path of that straight line even if they could easily walk around. I did not see any threatening behaviour from the camp members, just holding signs and chanting, as you would expect at any legal protest. I've observed street marchse too. Police are required to let these happen provided they are registered in advance. Nonetheless I see police barge into crowds (again being violent against everyone who happens to be standing in the straight line between A and B), grab someone seemingly at random, and haul them off to who knows where. One time I tried to film such a thing happening, and was shouted at, then kicked until I put my phone down, so. I won't be releasing that video for fear of further retaliation. I don't believe Jews are feeling scared, but I don't actually know any Jews (or Muslims), so feel free to prove me wrong. Every synagogue has a permanent police watch outside it, even before the 2023 escalation of the Gaza genocide, and I don't hear of any crimes or attempted crimes there. Now look at the other side, and it's people getting assaulted, arrested and deported for protesting. I sure would be scared if I believed that Netanyahu did something wrong, because if the government thought I disliked Israel's genocide on Gaza, it certainly seems like I could be deported for that. Interestingly enough, I heard of one cultural institution (but I forgot which) that's hosting a lot of anti-genocide events... because the government had already set a date for it to shut down, so it had nothing to lose. Something in the general vicinity of Möckernbrücke. There was another cultural institution somewhere in Neukölln that was shut down, immediately, following the choice to host one speech one time about Gaza. And there was a *Jewish center* that was raided by police for hosting a Yanis Varoufakis speech by video call. If Jewish centers should be afraid of anything right now, it seems to be the police. It makes me angry when people continually deny police misbehaviour that I have seen with my own eyes, heard with my ears and felt on my skin. I have to wonder if it's a particular kind of terminal online-ness where things one reads on the internet feel absolutely true because it's the closest to truth that one ever engages with. The alternative is that I'm clinically insane and shouldn't trust my own lying eyes, which I don't think is true. I never go to protests any more, even to observe, because I am afraid of the police. Most of the pro-Palestine protestors (as opposed to the COVID-19 protestors) I've ever talked with have seemed like relatively reasonable people, and I never saw violence instigated by anyone other than the police. Unless, of course, you believe that signs and chants are violent terrorism, as Germany apparently does. Someone told me it's not Germany-wide, and not federal thing, but specifically the Berlin police who are ruthless with Palestine protests, and that there's no problem with Palestine protests in any other part of Germany. I wouldn't know, since my eyeballs don't reach Germany-wide. Given the disconnect between media and observed reality in Berlin, I don't rely on the media for information about how the rest of Germany is doing on this issue. What is your rebuttal?
thyristan 2y ago
While the protests are per se not illegal, the people arrested aren't accused of just protesting, they are accused of supporting a terrorist organisation. The right to free speech isn't as all-encompassing in Germany as it is in the USA, so shouting the wrong slogans can very well get you in trouble. Also, the right to protest in public only applies to German citizens: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gg/art_8.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gg/art_8.html Foreigners are usually still free to do it, but they don't have a constitutionally protected right to public protests.
- immibis 2y ago
  > While the protests are per se not illegal, the people arrested aren't accused of just protesting, they are accused of supporting a terrorist organisation. The right to free speech isn't as all-encompassing in Germany as it is in the USA, so shouting the wrong slogans can very well get you in trouble. Yes, that's correct. Anyone who protests and grabs the attention of the police is accused of supporting a terrorist organisation. That's why I added the information that although they protest completely legally, they still get arrested and deported. The pretense for the arrest and deportation is that protesting to stop the carpet bombing of Gaza supports Hamas, which is designated as a terrorist organisation.
  - thyristan 2y ago
    Thousands for weeks on end protested the carpet bombing of Gaza, Germans as well as Foreigners. Many respectable foreign and German organisations invited to participate and organized those protests. And only very few of those protesting were arrested or even investigated. Those who were usually did something more than protest, like showing support for terrorist organizations like Hamas or ISIS by showing the respective flag, harassing counter-protesters, shouting controversial slogans like "from the river to the sea..." (which is thought to imply destroying Israel and therefore "Volksverhetzung", although I'm not sure if the courts are already through with that one) or just plainly calling for the killing of Jews or the eradication of Israel. Actually, the police was very patient and tame with those protests, too patient and too tame for the taste of many. A common, not totally unjustified opinion was that if those protests were just Germans protesting about a strictly German issue (like "Stuttgart21" or "Startbahn West" back in the day) and behaving like the pro-Palestine protestors did, there would have been riot police tear-gassing and bludgeoning everyone within half an hour.
mpweiher 2y ago
No. What is not allowed is calls for genocide ("From the river to the sea") and support for terrorist organizations. And yes, if you are a guest in a country, supporting genocide and terrorism can get you deported. But the police has been extremely lax in enforcement. These protests still basically always have these characteristics and there is no action by the police. It is pathetic.
- immibis 2y ago
  Protesting against Israel's carpet bombing and mass starvation of civilians, targeted missile strikes and sniper strikes on journalists (more than any other war in history and there might not be any left by now) and so on is considered to be supporting Hamas. Because if you weren't a Hamas terrorist, you'd support everything Israel says it does to get rid of Hamas. That six year old girl and the paramedics trying to save her? All Hamas. The flour massacre? Hamas. Journalists? Hamas. I'm skeptical that you haven't seen this rhetoric constantly since Oct 7 2023. Are you aware that people were chanting "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free", because it rhymes, and they were not chanting "from the river to the sea, let's gas all the Jews again"?
  - mpweiher 2y ago
    > is considered to be supporting Hamas. No it is not. Even if it almost certainly is. These protests used to run almost daily, and were often allowed to proceed even if actual calls for genocide were included. And of course you are also wrong on the content: those accusations are largely untrue, and Israel is an absolute leader in avoiding civilian casualties in urban combat, achieving a 1:1 ratio of civilian to combatant deaths, whereas the world average is 10:1. And this despite Hamas's openly stated and obviously carried out policy of creating as many civilian casualties in their own population as possible. And no, calling for genocide does not become legal if it rhymes.

switch007 2y ago

In the UK we don't discriminate based on citizenship, or even if the protests are political or not ! Protest marches - no wait, the term is less specific: "public processions" - can have restrictions imposed for basically any reason. Restrictions can be imposed if (this is just a selection): - They basically generate noise - May cause prolonged disruption of access to any essential goods or any essential service - May cause the prevention of, or a hindrance that is more than minor to, the carrying out of day-to-day activities - May cause the prevention of, or a delay that is more than minor to, the delivery of a time-sensitive product to consumers of that product Not forgetting there are probably 10-20 general Public Order Offences that can be used against a person, such as wilful obstruction of a highway or public nuisance. Then we also have Serious Disruption Prevention Orders (SDPOs). SDPOs are civil orders that enable courts to place conditions or restrictions on an individual aged over 18 (such as restrictions on where they can go and when) with the aim of preventing them from engaging in protest-related activity that could cause disruption. Breaching an SDPO is a criminal offence. And the cherry on the cake: by law you must tell the police in writing 6 days before a public march if you're the organiser (which is to say, get the police's permission)

ratatoskrt 2y ago
Laws around protests here in the UK are certainly problematic, but I haven't heard of ant cases where this would have been specifically used against students from abroad.
worik 2y ago
The subjects of His Majesty have never been free
- vixen99 2y ago
  Technically we're subjects but the King has zero executive powers. His soft powers are perhaps another topic. Point being we're in effect, citizens and subject to the (very variable) laws of the country like any other country. Currently freedom of expression in the UK is highly problematic but that's a temporary issue with the current administration. No subjects or citizens in any country are ever free as in free beer. So I suppose you're correct.