5 ms·

It's also almost 50 years since "An Open Letter to Hobbyists"[1]. It's amazing that in the last 30+ years, the "hobbyists" managed to turn the entire software i

It's also almost 50 years since "An Open Letter to Hobbyists"[1]. It's amazing that in the last 30+ years, the "hobbyists" managed to turn the entire software industry by 180°, and that Microsoft themselves are reliant on that work. Bill even specifically mentions musicians. By 1976, when blues was only ca 100 years old, most bands would play what we now call "covers", credit each original writer on the back of the record, and there was no shame or stigma around it. Art builds on art, and "stealing" is probably the most important part of the process[2]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Open_Letter_to_Hobbyists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Open_Letter_to_Hobbyists [2]: https://www.everythingisaremix.info/watch-the-series/ https://www.everythingisaremix.info/watch-the-series/

anon_e-moose 2y ago
> Art builds on art, and "stealing" is probably the most important part of the process[2]. > [2]: https://www.everythingisaremix.info/watch-the-series/ https://www.everythingisaremix.info/watch-the-series/ Nice try ChatGPT stealing from studio ghibli and Scarlett Johansson are still two egregious examples of what can kill artist's motivations. Why create or publish if credit is not given?
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  Downvote for low quality "nice try".
- rollcat 2y ago
  True, virtually all companies harvesting LLM training datasets don't bother honouring even the most permissive licenses, like MIT or BSD - Microsoft leading the pack with Github and Copilot. You're right to point out that the tide is shifting again. Perhaps at the end of this bubble, society and/or the behemoth companies will recognise the value and help build a more sustainable future for artists and creators. I'm cautiously optimistic.
- mediumsmart 2y ago
  > Why create or publish if credit is not given? That is true for content creators. Real artists don’t have a choice. They have to create art.
Ylpertnodi 2y ago
>By 1976, when blues was only ca 100 years old, most bands would play what we now call "covers", credit each original writer on the back of the record, and there was no shame or stigma around it. I do enjoy some Led Zeppelin, and I often enjoy the artists they didn't credit, even more.
pjmlp 2y ago
And now most of those hobbists are going back to commercial licenses, because other hobbists don't pay them, and there are bills to pay.
- zozbot234 2y ago
  > And now most of those hobbists are going back to commercial licenses It seems to be specifically the "hobbyists" that are also taking VC investment money for their "hobby project". It's pretty clear what's driving these decisions: VC's are not okay with a bootstrapped, penny-pinching business focusing on specialized support or custom development (which is the successful RedHat model), they want an early chance at really outsized returns.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Back in the day that letter was relevant we used to sell little tools via ads on magazines like BYTE, Dr Dobbs Journal and co, occasionally get nice money out of it. Also in the early BSD/Linux days, there were distributors like Walnut Creek, Amiga had Fish Disks, and so forth, some money could eventually go back to tool writers. It isn't only about VC money.
qoez 2y ago
Devils advocate: Imagine how much richer developers would have been today if software wasn't copied as much as it is today. Companies would have to pay developers to write it (we probably wouldn't have as much overall growth but devs would be richer). AI also wouldn't have been able to replace us if it was more secretive and proprietary.
- azemetre 2y ago
  Imagine how much public good can be done if the government had public software works project that did not need to rely on advertising to be useful while serving everyone (not just a boardroom of millionaires).
- AtlasBarfed 2y ago
  Almost like if there was a centralized source code registry that can diff identify code reuse path? Ironic that Microsoft GitHub is so close to that

anon_e-moose 2y ago

> Art builds on art, and "stealing" is probably the most important part of the process[2]. > [2]: https://www.everythingisaremix.info/watch-the-series/ https://www.everythingisaremix.info/watch-the-series/ Nice try ChatGPT stealing from studio ghibli and Scarlett Johansson are still two egregious examples of what can kill artist's motivations. Why create or publish if credit is not given?

robertlagrant 2y ago
Downvote for low quality "nice try".
rollcat 2y ago
True, virtually all companies harvesting LLM training datasets don't bother honouring even the most permissive licenses, like MIT or BSD - Microsoft leading the pack with Github and Copilot. You're right to point out that the tide is shifting again. Perhaps at the end of this bubble, society and/or the behemoth companies will recognise the value and help build a more sustainable future for artists and creators. I'm cautiously optimistic.
mediumsmart 2y ago
> Why create or publish if credit is not given? That is true for content creators. Real artists don’t have a choice. They have to create art.

Ylpertnodi 2y ago

>By 1976, when blues was only ca 100 years old, most bands would play what we now call "covers", credit each original writer on the back of the record, and there was no shame or stigma around it. I do enjoy some Led Zeppelin, and I often enjoy the artists they didn't credit, even more.

pjmlp 2y ago

And now most of those hobbists are going back to commercial licenses, because other hobbists don't pay them, and there are bills to pay.

zozbot234 2y ago
> And now most of those hobbists are going back to commercial licenses It seems to be specifically the "hobbyists" that are also taking VC investment money for their "hobby project". It's pretty clear what's driving these decisions: VC's are not okay with a bootstrapped, penny-pinching business focusing on specialized support or custom development (which is the successful RedHat model), they want an early chance at really outsized returns.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Back in the day that letter was relevant we used to sell little tools via ads on magazines like BYTE, Dr Dobbs Journal and co, occasionally get nice money out of it. Also in the early BSD/Linux days, there were distributors like Walnut Creek, Amiga had Fish Disks, and so forth, some money could eventually go back to tool writers. It isn't only about VC money.

qoez 2y ago

Devils advocate: Imagine how much richer developers would have been today if software wasn't copied as much as it is today. Companies would have to pay developers to write it (we probably wouldn't have as much overall growth but devs would be richer). AI also wouldn't have been able to replace us if it was more secretive and proprietary.

azemetre 2y ago
Imagine how much public good can be done if the government had public software works project that did not need to rely on advertising to be useful while serving everyone (not just a boardroom of millionaires).
AtlasBarfed 2y ago
Almost like if there was a centralized source code registry that can diff identify code reuse path? Ironic that Microsoft GitHub is so close to that