3 ms·

> Why are we throwing it away again? Because we haven't figured out how to square allowing people the freedom to work in the industries they please, no matter

by 9rx 2y ago

> Why are we throwing it away again? Because we haven't figured out how to square allowing people the freedom to work in the industries they please, no matter where in the world that industry has found itself, with allowing countries to strictly limit who is allowed inside its borders. The "just learn to code" message never sat well with those who have no interest in coding and now they are rising up to try and take back, so to speak, the work they actually want to do. The far reaching consequences that go along with that are not of their personal concern.

mmooss 2y ago
I've never heard that. I don't think many people migrate for specific industries. People migrate to have any job and some income, regardless of industry. Am I not thinking of some population?
- 9rx 2y ago
  > I don't think many people migrate for specific industries. "Brain drain" is a always hot topic in my country. Many people from here move to the US for access to certain industries, tech included. They aren't going there to do whatever arbitrary work they can find. Those in the US who love manufacturing aren't moving to China, but that's the issue: They, unless they have something really unique to offer, are going to find it difficult to. Hence why they want to see that work "brought home".
  - mmooss 2y ago
    > "Brain drain" That's a good point; I wasn't thinking of that. Still, the number of immigrants to the US for 'brain drain' jobs I'd guess is relatively small, and Trump supports them to some degree - he likes wealthy immigrants, including in tech. Remember the recent (H-1B?) visa controversy. > Those who love manufacturing Is that really a passion for many people, working on an assembly line? I've read about it as a necessary job to pay the bills that almost nobody likes, and they want their kids to have someting better, etc.
    - 9rx 2y ago
      > Still, the number of immigrants to the US for 'brain drain' jobs I'd guess is relatively small Right, but it's the converse that is the issue: Americans wanting to do jobs that aren't found (or only found in a limited way) in America. Trump also supports them. The intent is to see things like manufacturing jobs happen more often on American soil so that Americans can do those jobs. > Is that really a passion for many people, working on an assembly line? The idea of it is, at least. I know a lot of people who have impressive manufacturing facilities in their garages just to support it as a hobby. Manufacturing is clearly a relatively common passion. You may have a point that they might come to hate the work if it became their daily reality, but the emotions that drive this sort of thing are never grounded in logic. Besides, it is not like they love the burgers they are flipping right now.
      - mmooss 2y ago
        I don't think the hobby shop is comparable. Much manufacturing labor can be physically hard and damaging over the years. Many people spend their old age crippled from lifting heavy things all their lives, repetitive stress, and the associated serious injuries that eventually happen during tens of thousands of hours. You are pushed to work faster and harder for the entire day, with fewer breaks, etc. That's your life for decades. My impression is that most people working in manufacturing - as labor - would retire immediately if they could (and spend time in their garage). Many engineers probably are happy to keep working.
        9rx 2y ago
        > My impression is that most people working in manufacturing You believe it is only the people currently working in manufacturing that want to see America create more manufacturing jobs? Surely any desire they might have to work in manufacturing is already fulfilled? That has certainly never been my impression. As far as I can see it is those who dream of working in manufacturing who make the case for the need for manufacturing jobs. They are tired of flipping burgers and want something else – something they think will be fulfilling. As such, it is unlikely that they are in-tune with the realities of it.
- smackeyacky 2y ago
  I've never heard it either. Immigrants migrate overwhelmingly to escape terrible economic circumstances, wars, or simply to escape whatever oppression or danger is making their lives much worse than they could be.
  - 9rx 2y ago
    > I've never heard it either. You've never heard of the term "brain drain"? However, you must remember the bit about limiting who is allowed in the country. If you were a German with a hypothetical burning desire to flip burgers at In-N-Out Burger, what are the chances of you getting a work visa? I would say effectively nil. So you're not going to see those people even if they would arrive in a world without borders.
    - mmooss 2y ago
      > If you were a German with a hypothetical burning desire to flip burgers at In-N-Out Burger, what are the chances of you getting a work visa? I would say effectively nil. So you're not going to see those people even if they would arrive in a world without borders. That's a great point. Legal immigration (to somewhere desireable) is not an option for much of the population. What interest do they have in preserving it?
      - 9rx 2y ago
        > What interest do they have in preserving it? A good question. It is quite possible that they don't – that a different segment of the population has that interest.

by 9rx 2y ago

mmooss 2y ago

I've never heard that. I don't think many people migrate for specific industries. People migrate to have any job and some income, regardless of industry. Am I not thinking of some population?

9rx 2y ago
> I don't think many people migrate for specific industries. "Brain drain" is a always hot topic in my country. Many people from here move to the US for access to certain industries, tech included. They aren't going there to do whatever arbitrary work they can find. Those in the US who love manufacturing aren't moving to China, but that's the issue: They, unless they have something really unique to offer, are going to find it difficult to. Hence why they want to see that work "brought home".
- mmooss 2y ago
  > "Brain drain" That's a good point; I wasn't thinking of that. Still, the number of immigrants to the US for 'brain drain' jobs I'd guess is relatively small, and Trump supports them to some degree - he likes wealthy immigrants, including in tech. Remember the recent (H-1B?) visa controversy. > Those who love manufacturing Is that really a passion for many people, working on an assembly line? I've read about it as a necessary job to pay the bills that almost nobody likes, and they want their kids to have someting better, etc.
  - 9rx 2y ago
    > Still, the number of immigrants to the US for 'brain drain' jobs I'd guess is relatively small Right, but it's the converse that is the issue: Americans wanting to do jobs that aren't found (or only found in a limited way) in America. Trump also supports them. The intent is to see things like manufacturing jobs happen more often on American soil so that Americans can do those jobs. > Is that really a passion for many people, working on an assembly line? The idea of it is, at least. I know a lot of people who have impressive manufacturing facilities in their garages just to support it as a hobby. Manufacturing is clearly a relatively common passion. You may have a point that they might come to hate the work if it became their daily reality, but the emotions that drive this sort of thing are never grounded in logic. Besides, it is not like they love the burgers they are flipping right now.
    - mmooss 2y ago
      I don't think the hobby shop is comparable. Much manufacturing labor can be physically hard and damaging over the years. Many people spend their old age crippled from lifting heavy things all their lives, repetitive stress, and the associated serious injuries that eventually happen during tens of thousands of hours. You are pushed to work faster and harder for the entire day, with fewer breaks, etc. That's your life for decades. My impression is that most people working in manufacturing - as labor - would retire immediately if they could (and spend time in their garage). Many engineers probably are happy to keep working.
      - 9rx 2y ago
        > My impression is that most people working in manufacturing You believe it is only the people currently working in manufacturing that want to see America create more manufacturing jobs? Surely any desire they might have to work in manufacturing is already fulfilled? That has certainly never been my impression. As far as I can see it is those who dream of working in manufacturing who make the case for the need for manufacturing jobs. They are tired of flipping burgers and want something else – something they think will be fulfilling. As such, it is unlikely that they are in-tune with the realities of it.
smackeyacky 2y ago
I've never heard it either. Immigrants migrate overwhelmingly to escape terrible economic circumstances, wars, or simply to escape whatever oppression or danger is making their lives much worse than they could be.
- 9rx 2y ago
  > I've never heard it either. You've never heard of the term "brain drain"? However, you must remember the bit about limiting who is allowed in the country. If you were a German with a hypothetical burning desire to flip burgers at In-N-Out Burger, what are the chances of you getting a work visa? I would say effectively nil. So you're not going to see those people even if they would arrive in a world without borders.
  - mmooss 2y ago
    > If you were a German with a hypothetical burning desire to flip burgers at In-N-Out Burger, what are the chances of you getting a work visa? I would say effectively nil. So you're not going to see those people even if they would arrive in a world without borders. That's a great point. Legal immigration (to somewhere desireable) is not an option for much of the population. What interest do they have in preserving it?
    - 9rx 2y ago
      > What interest do they have in preserving it? A good question. It is quite possible that they don't – that a different segment of the population has that interest.