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> People who "figured out" Zig tend to be fiercely loyal to the language in a similar way as Rust evangelists to Rust. This is very much not productive and you

> People who "figured out" Zig tend to be fiercely loyal to the language in a similar way as Rust evangelists to Rust. This is very much not productive and you’re now part of spreding this narrative. There’s plenty of people out there who has «figured out» and appreciate both Zig and Rust without becoming attached to it. I’m interested in communities which looks towards other languages for inspiration and admiration, not judgements and alienation.

unclad5968 2y ago
So which language do you use then? I've never seen a language that doesn't have bad things to say about other languages. Zig bdfl himself accused vlang of committing fraud a while back. Every language designer takes things they like about some languages and leaves things they don't like.
- wk_end 2y ago
  > Zig bdfl himself accused vlang of committing fraud a while back. I think there's a difference between a critical generalization of a community and the mindset behind it and how that relates to the language (without weighing in on how legitimate that criticism is), and a direct accusation that one individual did a specific bad thing.
- judofyr 2y ago
  > I've never seen a language that doesn't have bad things to say about other languages. That's why I said "communities" and not "languages". Every programming language has a wide set of people who use it. You can always find some people who constantly say bad things about other languages. You can also find people who are interested in the different trade offs of the language. I use languages which are technically interesting, and then I engage with the parts of the community which are interested in finding the best solutions to actual problems. And guess what? Most of the Zig and Rust community are, in my experience, way more focused on solving real problems than to push their language at all cost. Both /r/rust and /r/zig will often recommend different languages. I mean, this was the most upvoted comment around how to convince someone's boss to use Rust over Python: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/14a7vgo/how_to_convince_my_boss_that_rust_is_usable/jo8yemg/ https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/14a7vgo/how_to_convin....
  - unclad5968 2y ago
    > than to push their language at all cost Nobody said they do that
- baranul 2y ago
  > Zig bdfl himself accused vlang of committing fraud a while back. That was truly foul. On top of that, begged readers to give their money to Zig. Clearly some have no limits on what to say and do against other languages or to sell their language. That's why whatever bad things a creator or evangelist says about another language, people shouldn't just swallow, and instead take with a grain of salt and some skepticism.
  - maleldil 2y ago
    > That was truly foul Is it because, as the leader of a language, he shouldn't be making "attacks" against other languages? Because, as far as V being a fraud, he was 100% correct.
    - baranul 2y ago
      > Is it because, as the leader of a language, he shouldn't be making "attacks" against other languages? Actually, yes. Not only from the angle of common decency or adhering to a code of conduct, but as a matter of professionalism and setting the example for followers. > as far as V being a fraud... That is a provably false claim from competitors, who should not be engaging in such activity. Paying supporters[1][2][3] (ylluminate, gompertz, etc...) of the V language have even gone on record at HN, to clearly state such competitor or evangelist claims are false, and that they are happy with the language. Not only can such competitor generated claims be seen as false, through direct V supporter refutation, but by the visible progress of the project as a whole. Over the years, the V language repo continually amasses thousands of stars and hundreds of contributors, that can be plainly seen on GitHub. It is a significantly large and successful project. To pretend or argue otherwise, is very disingenuous. People are there, because they like using Vlang[4]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31801287 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31801287 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31801262 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31801262 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31812189 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31812189 [4] https://github.com/vlang/awesome-v https://github.com/vlang/awesome-v
    - xigoi 2y ago
      How is V a fraud? Last time I checked, the compiler worked and I was able to write and run complex programs, although I did run into some bugs.
- hitekker 2y ago
  The accusation is harsh, but I think Zig's BDFL had a point. V-lang seems to have been poorly led for many years. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27441848 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27441848 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39503446 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39503446 Many links paint a picture of constant false advertising, even deception.
lerno 2y ago
For what it's worth, I found the Zig community on the biggest Zig discord very nice and welcoming. But that said, there is a lot of "you have to understand Zig" sentiment. Also, there is a lot of "I discovered Zig and it's finally showing me how to program" echoed as well. I don't find this an unfair judgment but rather an observation. I think this naturally arises from the language claiming to be "a programming language designed for robustness, optimality, and clarity" (See for instance https://www.recurse.com/events/localhost-andrew-kelley https://www.recurse.com/events/localhost-andrew-kelley) If you feel that this is an optimal programming language that gives more robustness and clarity than other languages, then it's natural to be preachy about it. This is similar to Rust being sold as safe language, where similarly the proponents of Rust feel that the advantages of Rust need to be spread. As a contrast, Odin focuses on "joy of programming" as its main goal, and the author does not make any claims of the language having killer features to choose it over something else. However, it seems to be successful in that new users tend to remark how pleasant and fun it is to program in the language.
- johnisgood 2y ago
  Off-topic (maybe should ask elsewhere), but why is C3 using "fn", it could not be avoided? Edit: Someone already asked: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43572190 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43572190
- judofyr 2y ago
  You're kinda proving my point here by using such loaded terms. You've chosen the term "preachy" (a negative word) to describe people who are excited about advancements in programming languages (e.g. borrow checker, powerful type system, comptime, alignment as a part of type system). You've chosen to not mention that Rust keeps being the "Most loved programming language" (according to Stack Overflow); isn't this is a sign that people find it joyful? > Also, there is a lot of "I discovered Zig and it's finally showing me how to program" echoed as well. So, did you try Zig? How did you find it? Did it show you a new way to program? Or were you already aware of this way? Or do you think it's not a good way? What did you find interesting? What features did you steal because they were good? What do you think is overrated? These are the questions I'm interested in from other programming language designers! > As a contrast, Odin focuses on "joy of programming" as its main goal, and the author does not make any claims of the language having killer features to choose it over something else. And that's a fair thing to say! You can say that C3 is just a slightly better C and doesn't have any other killer feature. I'm just not sure why you need to talk negatively about other languages.
baranul 2y ago
This is a good point about narrative spreading, in addition to marketing. People can become evangelized by their use of certain languages or by comments from certain language creators, then go on to attack others for using or even just wanting to try other languages. This shouldn't be what HN is about. It makes it look like HN has a language approval list. As for both C3 and Odin, they've been around for many years, yet don't even have a Wikipedia page and have relatively low numbers on GitHub. That comes across as more time spent pushing or hyping on HN, than those languages being considered a truly viable alternative by the general public. Just weird, because you would think it should be the other way around.
- lerno 2y ago
  Did you know that Wikipedia editors will aggressively remove Wiki entries about less known languages. There are already several wiki articles on Odin by various authors that have been removed over the years. Talking about GitHub numbers, we can look at VLang, which had an astronomical trajectory initially due to overpromising and selling a language that would solve long standing issues such as no manual memory management but no GC needed etc. Such viral popularity creates a different trajectory from organically growing word of mouth such as in the Odin case. Vlang also has a Wikipedia page. Is this then proof that it is a viable alternative to the general public? This is what you argue.
  - baranul 2y ago
    Wikipedia and their processes are independent to any language. It means that if Odin or other languages were removed, they were likely judged as not meeting the standard or not popular enough. That the Odin language is so old (around 9 years), and still not on it, is indicative of it not being as popular as various people are hoping. The use of negative catch phrases and envious put downs by competitors of Vlang has no bearing on the Wikipedia process. They will not care about any competition or politics among programming languages. The language either meets their standard and proves its case, that it should have a page, or not. Just like Zig, Nim, Rust, etc... have done.
    - 2y ago

unclad5968 2y ago

So which language do you use then? I've never seen a language that doesn't have bad things to say about other languages. Zig bdfl himself accused vlang of committing fraud a while back. Every language designer takes things they like about some languages and leaves things they don't like.

wk_end 2y ago
> Zig bdfl himself accused vlang of committing fraud a while back. I think there's a difference between a critical generalization of a community and the mindset behind it and how that relates to the language (without weighing in on how legitimate that criticism is), and a direct accusation that one individual did a specific bad thing.
judofyr 2y ago
> I've never seen a language that doesn't have bad things to say about other languages. That's why I said "communities" and not "languages". Every programming language has a wide set of people who use it. You can always find some people who constantly say bad things about other languages. You can also find people who are interested in the different trade offs of the language. I use languages which are technically interesting, and then I engage with the parts of the community which are interested in finding the best solutions to actual problems. And guess what? Most of the Zig and Rust community are, in my experience, way more focused on solving real problems than to push their language at all cost. Both /r/rust and /r/zig will often recommend different languages. I mean, this was the most upvoted comment around how to convince someone's boss to use Rust over Python: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/14a7vgo/how_to_convince_my_boss_that_rust_is_usable/jo8yemg/ https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/14a7vgo/how_to_convin....
- unclad5968 2y ago
  > than to push their language at all cost Nobody said they do that
baranul 2y ago
> Zig bdfl himself accused vlang of committing fraud a while back. That was truly foul. On top of that, begged readers to give their money to Zig. Clearly some have no limits on what to say and do against other languages or to sell their language. That's why whatever bad things a creator or evangelist says about another language, people shouldn't just swallow, and instead take with a grain of salt and some skepticism.
- maleldil 2y ago
  > That was truly foul Is it because, as the leader of a language, he shouldn't be making "attacks" against other languages? Because, as far as V being a fraud, he was 100% correct.
  - baranul 2y ago
    > Is it because, as the leader of a language, he shouldn't be making "attacks" against other languages? Actually, yes. Not only from the angle of common decency or adhering to a code of conduct, but as a matter of professionalism and setting the example for followers. > as far as V being a fraud... That is a provably false claim from competitors, who should not be engaging in such activity. Paying supporters[1][2][3] (ylluminate, gompertz, etc...) of the V language have even gone on record at HN, to clearly state such competitor or evangelist claims are false, and that they are happy with the language. Not only can such competitor generated claims be seen as false, through direct V supporter refutation, but by the visible progress of the project as a whole. Over the years, the V language repo continually amasses thousands of stars and hundreds of contributors, that can be plainly seen on GitHub. It is a significantly large and successful project. To pretend or argue otherwise, is very disingenuous. People are there, because they like using Vlang[4]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31801287 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31801287 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31801262 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31801262 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31812189 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31812189 [4] https://github.com/vlang/awesome-v https://github.com/vlang/awesome-v
  - xigoi 2y ago
    How is V a fraud? Last time I checked, the compiler worked and I was able to write and run complex programs, although I did run into some bugs.
hitekker 2y ago
The accusation is harsh, but I think Zig's BDFL had a point. V-lang seems to have been poorly led for many years. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27441848 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27441848 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39503446 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39503446 Many links paint a picture of constant false advertising, even deception.

lerno 2y ago

For what it's worth, I found the Zig community on the biggest Zig discord very nice and welcoming. But that said, there is a lot of "you have to understand Zig" sentiment. Also, there is a lot of "I discovered Zig and it's finally showing me how to program" echoed as well. I don't find this an unfair judgment but rather an observation. I think this naturally arises from the language claiming to be "a programming language designed for robustness, optimality, and clarity" (See for instance https://www.recurse.com/events/localhost-andrew-kelley https://www.recurse.com/events/localhost-andrew-kelley) If you feel that this is an optimal programming language that gives more robustness and clarity than other languages, then it's natural to be preachy about it. This is similar to Rust being sold as safe language, where similarly the proponents of Rust feel that the advantages of Rust need to be spread. As a contrast, Odin focuses on "joy of programming" as its main goal, and the author does not make any claims of the language having killer features to choose it over something else. However, it seems to be successful in that new users tend to remark how pleasant and fun it is to program in the language.

johnisgood 2y ago
Off-topic (maybe should ask elsewhere), but why is C3 using "fn", it could not be avoided? Edit: Someone already asked: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43572190 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43572190
judofyr 2y ago
You're kinda proving my point here by using such loaded terms. You've chosen the term "preachy" (a negative word) to describe people who are excited about advancements in programming languages (e.g. borrow checker, powerful type system, comptime, alignment as a part of type system). You've chosen to not mention that Rust keeps being the "Most loved programming language" (according to Stack Overflow); isn't this is a sign that people find it joyful? > Also, there is a lot of "I discovered Zig and it's finally showing me how to program" echoed as well. So, did you try Zig? How did you find it? Did it show you a new way to program? Or were you already aware of this way? Or do you think it's not a good way? What did you find interesting? What features did you steal because they were good? What do you think is overrated? These are the questions I'm interested in from other programming language designers! > As a contrast, Odin focuses on "joy of programming" as its main goal, and the author does not make any claims of the language having killer features to choose it over something else. And that's a fair thing to say! You can say that C3 is just a slightly better C and doesn't have any other killer feature. I'm just not sure why you need to talk negatively about other languages.

baranul 2y ago

This is a good point about narrative spreading, in addition to marketing. People can become evangelized by their use of certain languages or by comments from certain language creators, then go on to attack others for using or even just wanting to try other languages. This shouldn't be what HN is about. It makes it look like HN has a language approval list. As for both C3 and Odin, they've been around for many years, yet don't even have a Wikipedia page and have relatively low numbers on GitHub. That comes across as more time spent pushing or hyping on HN, than those languages being considered a truly viable alternative by the general public. Just weird, because you would think it should be the other way around.

lerno 2y ago
Did you know that Wikipedia editors will aggressively remove Wiki entries about less known languages. There are already several wiki articles on Odin by various authors that have been removed over the years. Talking about GitHub numbers, we can look at VLang, which had an astronomical trajectory initially due to overpromising and selling a language that would solve long standing issues such as no manual memory management but no GC needed etc. Such viral popularity creates a different trajectory from organically growing word of mouth such as in the Odin case. Vlang also has a Wikipedia page. Is this then proof that it is a viable alternative to the general public? This is what you argue.
- baranul 2y ago
  Wikipedia and their processes are independent to any language. It means that if Odin or other languages were removed, they were likely judged as not meeting the standard or not popular enough. That the Odin language is so old (around 9 years), and still not on it, is indicative of it not being as popular as various people are hoping. The use of negative catch phrases and envious put downs by competitors of Vlang has no bearing on the Wikipedia process. They will not care about any competition or politics among programming languages. The language either meets their standard and proves its case, that it should have a page, or not. Just like Zig, Nim, Rust, etc... have done.
  - 2y ago