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Contempt for your users inevitably leads to bad products so it’s no wonder things are bad if this is the prevalent attitude among front end web developers.

moron4hire 2y ago
I don't have contempt for users. I have contempt for single-issue developers who have never stepped out of their little corner of software who act like front end should be easy because it's "just" some scripting.
throwaway9w4 2y ago
I agree with you It reminds me of an online store in the beginning of 2000s To buy a product, you had to drag&drop the product image over the shopping basket icon. It took me quite a while to figure that out, and I bet they lost a lot of customers. [Edit: I acknowledge that a PM or manager may have forced the developer to do this, but it's just one example of many] Sometimes the developers have to take the blame, instead of blaming "stupid" users. Some take that attitude to frameworks as well. If the users complain, they haven't understood how to use it correctly. Just look at the "how to make a todos in 5min" video on YouTube to be convinced of its beauty
- moron4hire 2y ago
  Yeah, it's really easy to cherry pick an example from the past of an application probably built by a junior level employee being brow-beat into submission my an MBA-laden PM.
  - throwaway9w4 2y ago
    You may be right, but this is just one example Also, backend people can be arrogant as well, but it seems that for some reason new ideas tend to be picked up quicker in frontend, which unfortunately results in bad ideas spreading fast too.
    - moron4hire 2y ago
      Nah, the front end is just visible. And any errors that originate get surfaced in the front end. All you get to see as a use is "website said no". It's only now, in the days of "vibe coding" that I would firmly put the sole blame on developers for bad application interfaces, because it's usually just one clueless person who is YOLOing code out into the wild. Everywhere else: hidden icebergs of complexity and you didn't know what led to the current state.
    - hn_is_all_bots 2y ago
      [flagged]
singingboyo 2y ago
There's a difference between contempt (i.e. "users are stupid") and realism, though. And realism can range from "users don't want to troubleshoot" to "some users are near-violently anti-tech and won't read errors", depending on context. The unfortunate truth is that if you're doing B2C or even B2B outside of tech companies, the second one will often come up... Bad devs exist. Bad users do too. Thing is, you can't usually fire the bad users.
- Swizec 2y ago
  > And realism can range from "users don't want to troubleshoot" to "some users are near-violently anti-tech and won't read errors", depending on context. No dude, I have things to do and your little software is a tiny roadblock in my day. I dont want to become a fellow expert in your niche, do the thing and get out of my way. Building UI for work and for consumers is completely different. I’ve done both, user attitudes are veeeery different. Building an ecommerce page is also very different to building an engagement trap for users to sit in. Problems start when engineers/designers/producters don’t understand their users and their goals. Or when the user is not also the customer (this is the worst)
  - oceanlinertax 2y ago
    [flagged]
- antihipocrat 2y ago
  There's a third category too, users looking for security weakness and probing the system with a spectrum of inputs. The response to these inputs can reveal a lot about how the backend is designed.
rfgmendoza 2y ago
contempt for users is the unavoidable consequence of having users.
evilduck 2y ago
Lack of concern or outright contempt for front end and the users is why front end development is a subfield in the first place, because backend devs can't or won't produce something people can use.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  > backend devs can't or won't produce something people can use. Where by people you mean management and sales, and by produce you mean add 150 different tracker scripts? :). Snark aside, contempt for frontend dev and contempt for users are two different things; the latter has thoroughly infected the fields of UI/UX. It's most visible in webdev, because that's where most UI work happens. Second to that is mobile app dev, where it's just as bad. Also, there are actually two somewhat distinct types of contempt for the user: 1) Paternalism - "users are idiots and need to be babysit at every step, or else they hurt themselves (or make us spend money on support)"; this one is pretty overt in UI/UX. 2) Exploitation - "users are livestock, the purpose of the site/app is to milk them as much as we can - whether it's taking their data, money, or both; the design must guide users to allow extracting maximum value from them before eventually discarding them"; this one is less talked about, even though it underpins many UI/UX patterns (not all of them known as "dark patterns").
  - maccard 2y ago
    I do a decent amount of ux work and probably fall into category 1 here. The problem isn’t “we don’t want to spend money on support”, the problem is “people really do need to be babysat for a lot of things, and no matter what you do, they will not read the documentation.
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      That's fair. People really are like that. This is suboptimal, and I emphasize with both frustrated devs and PHBs worried about escalating support costs. The reasons behind why users are like this are complex, but "users are stupid" isn't one of them.
xmprt 2y ago
I don't read it as contempt but rather the equivalent of a backend engineer saying that you can't trust user inputs and need to validate, authenticate, and authorize every request.
ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
I wouldn’t call what they wrote as “contempt.” It seems to me, to be cynical realism; something I tend to exhibit, myself. I like people. I really do. I especially love the users of the software I write, and go well out of my way, to craft the best UI possible. But I am constantly being blindsided by knuckleheads; some of whom, are really, really smart, educated, and inquisitive people. I write iOS apps, and spend many, many hours, testing and tweaking. Right now, I am completely rewriting an app, because I couldn’t get the UI right, at the final stage. I realized my fundamentals were borked, and that I needed to go back to the ol’ drawing board, as Wile E. Coyote would say. Many developers would have shipped, but I have the luxury of being able to redo it (I have done it before). It’s a cool trick, and one that I’d probably use, if I was dedicated to Web design, the way I am, to app design.

moron4hire 2y ago

I don't have contempt for users. I have contempt for single-issue developers who have never stepped out of their little corner of software who act like front end should be easy because it's "just" some scripting.

throwaway9w4 2y ago

I agree with you It reminds me of an online store in the beginning of 2000s To buy a product, you had to drag&drop the product image over the shopping basket icon. It took me quite a while to figure that out, and I bet they lost a lot of customers. [Edit: I acknowledge that a PM or manager may have forced the developer to do this, but it's just one example of many] Sometimes the developers have to take the blame, instead of blaming "stupid" users. Some take that attitude to frameworks as well. If the users complain, they haven't understood how to use it correctly. Just look at the "how to make a todos in 5min" video on YouTube to be convinced of its beauty

moron4hire 2y ago
Yeah, it's really easy to cherry pick an example from the past of an application probably built by a junior level employee being brow-beat into submission my an MBA-laden PM.
- throwaway9w4 2y ago
  You may be right, but this is just one example Also, backend people can be arrogant as well, but it seems that for some reason new ideas tend to be picked up quicker in frontend, which unfortunately results in bad ideas spreading fast too.
  - moron4hire 2y ago
    Nah, the front end is just visible. And any errors that originate get surfaced in the front end. All you get to see as a use is "website said no". It's only now, in the days of "vibe coding" that I would firmly put the sole blame on developers for bad application interfaces, because it's usually just one clueless person who is YOLOing code out into the wild. Everywhere else: hidden icebergs of complexity and you didn't know what led to the current state.
  - hn_is_all_bots 2y ago
    [flagged]

singingboyo 2y ago

There's a difference between contempt (i.e. "users are stupid") and realism, though. And realism can range from "users don't want to troubleshoot" to "some users are near-violently anti-tech and won't read errors", depending on context. The unfortunate truth is that if you're doing B2C or even B2B outside of tech companies, the second one will often come up... Bad devs exist. Bad users do too. Thing is, you can't usually fire the bad users.

Swizec 2y ago
> And realism can range from "users don't want to troubleshoot" to "some users are near-violently anti-tech and won't read errors", depending on context. No dude, I have things to do and your little software is a tiny roadblock in my day. I dont want to become a fellow expert in your niche, do the thing and get out of my way. Building UI for work and for consumers is completely different. I’ve done both, user attitudes are veeeery different. Building an ecommerce page is also very different to building an engagement trap for users to sit in. Problems start when engineers/designers/producters don’t understand their users and their goals. Or when the user is not also the customer (this is the worst)
- oceanlinertax 2y ago
  [flagged]
antihipocrat 2y ago
There's a third category too, users looking for security weakness and probing the system with a spectrum of inputs. The response to these inputs can reveal a lot about how the backend is designed.

rfgmendoza 2y ago

contempt for users is the unavoidable consequence of having users.

evilduck 2y ago

Lack of concern or outright contempt for front end and the users is why front end development is a subfield in the first place, because backend devs can't or won't produce something people can use.

TeMPOraL 2y ago
> backend devs can't or won't produce something people can use. Where by people you mean management and sales, and by produce you mean add 150 different tracker scripts? :). Snark aside, contempt for frontend dev and contempt for users are two different things; the latter has thoroughly infected the fields of UI/UX. It's most visible in webdev, because that's where most UI work happens. Second to that is mobile app dev, where it's just as bad. Also, there are actually two somewhat distinct types of contempt for the user: 1) Paternalism - "users are idiots and need to be babysit at every step, or else they hurt themselves (or make us spend money on support)"; this one is pretty overt in UI/UX. 2) Exploitation - "users are livestock, the purpose of the site/app is to milk them as much as we can - whether it's taking their data, money, or both; the design must guide users to allow extracting maximum value from them before eventually discarding them"; this one is less talked about, even though it underpins many UI/UX patterns (not all of them known as "dark patterns").
- maccard 2y ago
  I do a decent amount of ux work and probably fall into category 1 here. The problem isn’t “we don’t want to spend money on support”, the problem is “people really do need to be babysat for a lot of things, and no matter what you do, they will not read the documentation.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    That's fair. People really are like that. This is suboptimal, and I emphasize with both frustrated devs and PHBs worried about escalating support costs. The reasons behind why users are like this are complex, but "users are stupid" isn't one of them.

xmprt 2y ago

I don't read it as contempt but rather the equivalent of a backend engineer saying that you can't trust user inputs and need to validate, authenticate, and authorize every request.

ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago

I wouldn’t call what they wrote as “contempt.” It seems to me, to be cynical realism; something I tend to exhibit, myself. I like people. I really do. I especially love the users of the software I write, and go well out of my way, to craft the best UI possible. But I am constantly being blindsided by knuckleheads; some of whom, are really, really smart, educated, and inquisitive people. I write iOS apps, and spend many, many hours, testing and tweaking. Right now, I am completely rewriting an app, because I couldn’t get the UI right, at the final stage. I realized my fundamentals were borked, and that I needed to go back to the ol’ drawing board, as Wile E. Coyote would say. Many developers would have shipped, but I have the luxury of being able to redo it (I have done it before). It’s a cool trick, and one that I’d probably use, if I was dedicated to Web design, the way I am, to app design.