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I know there is a crowd that talks about debt alot and these are all legitimate concerns However they could also raise taxes on capital gains and top end inco

I know there is a crowd that talks about debt alot and these are all legitimate concerns However they could also raise taxes on capital gains and top end income brackets - which are at ludicrously low levels for folks of significant wealth - which would go a very long way here. Some estimates suggest it could put the US back in a surplus quite quickly edit: I'm saying there is an argument for raising taxes. I don't think its off the table like some people suggest. I know it may not be popular with some but we could discuss the merits. Cutting fundamental government services feels wrong too

generalpf 2y ago
It's been argued a lot that such a move would cause a good portion of American billionaires to just pack up and move to another country. Rich people are mobile in a way that poor people are not.
- pjc50 2y ago
  The US is unique in levying taxes on its nationals wherever they are in the world. Although you've just made an argument for capital controls. We could call them "dollar export tariffs".
  - Yeul 2y ago
    Believe it or not but there are Americans who relinquish their passport precisely because of this reason. Patriotism is automatically assumed but we live in a globalised world.
    - axus 2y ago
      That seems very likely, but I'd like the names of a few billionaires to verify.
    - AlotOfReading 2y ago
      The US is fairly unique in imposing an "expatriation" tax precisely to avoid this situation. The IRS taxes all of their assets as if sold on the day before expatriation. Of course collecting taxes internationally is difficult, but anyone wealthy enough to meet the criteria will probably need to visit the US at some point.
    - vincnetas 2y ago
      Did you know that US has tools to claim part of your wealth even if you relinquishment the citizenship. Google "exit tax" for us citizens. The US exit tax is a tax on your worldwide assets. The tax applies to all property that you own on the date of renunciation
      - rcxdude 2y ago
        Most of the times I've heard of it happening it's someone who's net worth is well below the threshold for this (indeed well below the threshold where they actually need to pay any income tax to the US government), but because of the headache of needing to file the paperwork and the fact that a lot of banks don't want to deal with US citizens due to extra requirements imposed on them by the US government (via its financial system).
        amrocha 2y ago
        Maybe the reason you haven’t heard about it is that you don’t know any billionaires? That, and that the US is a tax haven for the super rich, so they have no reason to leave.
  - Propelloni 2y ago
    The USA is not unique but member of a very exclusive club. The other member is the enlightened dictatorship of Eritrea. And, IIRC, Trump promised to abolish this taxation during his campaign. I'm not holding my breath.
- mk89 2y ago
  Plus, if you do that you're a frigging communist. On the other hand, it's so much better to call neighbors, allies and everyone else people pillaging/raping the country. People like drama :)
- no_wizard 2y ago
  I don't think its that simple and is overly simplistic. If it was all about getting a better deal why wouldn't they have all left for Switzerland by now? Objectively, its a better deal than what the US offers - even on tax rates.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    Everyone has their own tipping point. Just as salary isn't the only reason to move job, taxes aren't the only reason to stay. But at some point, people move. And the US makes you pay tax overseas anyway, so you can't just move and re-domicile. You have to emigrate and gain citizenship elsewhere.
    - amrocha 2y ago
      You still have to pay an exit tax if you give up citizenship. The tax man gets his cut.
  - shagmin 2y ago
    Just within the US you could ask why wealthy people aren't all moving to states without any income taxes more frequently. Plenty do move to certain low tax states but network effects, infrastructure, stability, well-understood regulations, etc., seem to often play a bigger role.
- barbazoo 2y ago
  > Rich people are mobile in a way that poor people are not. Yet it's poor people that you see migrating most.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    Poor people migrate. Rich people... just travel a lot.
- neogodless 2y ago
  So where is the wealth of the rich stored? Where does their income come from? (e.g. investment growth, etc.) Can't you basically tax their income, and quadruple that tax if they move abroad and want to move their money out of the U.S.? (I'm guessing it's not easy, but I also guess the reason it's not done is because the ultra rich have so much influence on the politicians and tax code... not for whatever other logistical reasons might exist.)
- goatlover 2y ago
  Good riddance. They can go interfere with someone else's government.
- amrocha 2y ago
  Sure, they can leave, but if their companies want access to the US market they have to pay taxes. Capital flight is a red herring.
- timacles 2y ago
  this argument is along the lines of "if theres global warming why is it cold outside today" The rich prosper precisely because they are in the US.
- dumbledoren 2y ago
  If the billionaires pack up and move to another country, then those who are willing to pay their due taxes and operate with a lesser profit margin would take the place they left in the market. There is no need to oblige sociopathic profiteers because they threaten to leave. And, where will they go, really? There are considerable taxes in every country that billionaires would consider. And if they choose to cram into some small island tax haven in the Caribbean, the US can easily pressure that tax haven to do anything it wants.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
schnable 2y ago
The problem is that raising top end rates don't go far enough. It's a start, but we also need to raise the lower rates to solve the problem. That, or dramatically cut benefits.
- no_wizard 2y ago
  I don't think broader tax increases are off the table either, but we haven't even attempted to simply close up the loopholes used by corporations and the ultra wealthy and raise taxes in kind. Once that happens, I think its fair to reassess what to do with any lingering problems of raising revenue.
  - schnable 2y ago
    That isn't necessary, we know how much revenue that will raise.

generalpf 2y ago

It's been argued a lot that such a move would cause a good portion of American billionaires to just pack up and move to another country. Rich people are mobile in a way that poor people are not.

pjc50 2y ago
The US is unique in levying taxes on its nationals wherever they are in the world. Although you've just made an argument for capital controls. We could call them "dollar export tariffs".
- Yeul 2y ago
  Believe it or not but there are Americans who relinquish their passport precisely because of this reason. Patriotism is automatically assumed but we live in a globalised world.
  - axus 2y ago
    That seems very likely, but I'd like the names of a few billionaires to verify.
  - AlotOfReading 2y ago
    The US is fairly unique in imposing an "expatriation" tax precisely to avoid this situation. The IRS taxes all of their assets as if sold on the day before expatriation. Of course collecting taxes internationally is difficult, but anyone wealthy enough to meet the criteria will probably need to visit the US at some point.
  - vincnetas 2y ago
    Did you know that US has tools to claim part of your wealth even if you relinquishment the citizenship. Google "exit tax" for us citizens. The US exit tax is a tax on your worldwide assets. The tax applies to all property that you own on the date of renunciation
    - rcxdude 2y ago
      Most of the times I've heard of it happening it's someone who's net worth is well below the threshold for this (indeed well below the threshold where they actually need to pay any income tax to the US government), but because of the headache of needing to file the paperwork and the fact that a lot of banks don't want to deal with US citizens due to extra requirements imposed on them by the US government (via its financial system).
      - amrocha 2y ago
        Maybe the reason you haven’t heard about it is that you don’t know any billionaires? That, and that the US is a tax haven for the super rich, so they have no reason to leave.
- Propelloni 2y ago
  The USA is not unique but member of a very exclusive club. The other member is the enlightened dictatorship of Eritrea. And, IIRC, Trump promised to abolish this taxation during his campaign. I'm not holding my breath.
mk89 2y ago
Plus, if you do that you're a frigging communist. On the other hand, it's so much better to call neighbors, allies and everyone else people pillaging/raping the country. People like drama :)
no_wizard 2y ago
I don't think its that simple and is overly simplistic. If it was all about getting a better deal why wouldn't they have all left for Switzerland by now? Objectively, its a better deal than what the US offers - even on tax rates.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  Everyone has their own tipping point. Just as salary isn't the only reason to move job, taxes aren't the only reason to stay. But at some point, people move. And the US makes you pay tax overseas anyway, so you can't just move and re-domicile. You have to emigrate and gain citizenship elsewhere.
  - amrocha 2y ago
    You still have to pay an exit tax if you give up citizenship. The tax man gets his cut.
- shagmin 2y ago
  Just within the US you could ask why wealthy people aren't all moving to states without any income taxes more frequently. Plenty do move to certain low tax states but network effects, infrastructure, stability, well-understood regulations, etc., seem to often play a bigger role.
barbazoo 2y ago
> Rich people are mobile in a way that poor people are not. Yet it's poor people that you see migrating most.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  Poor people migrate. Rich people... just travel a lot.
neogodless 2y ago
So where is the wealth of the rich stored? Where does their income come from? (e.g. investment growth, etc.) Can't you basically tax their income, and quadruple that tax if they move abroad and want to move their money out of the U.S.? (I'm guessing it's not easy, but I also guess the reason it's not done is because the ultra rich have so much influence on the politicians and tax code... not for whatever other logistical reasons might exist.)
goatlover 2y ago
Good riddance. They can go interfere with someone else's government.
amrocha 2y ago
Sure, they can leave, but if their companies want access to the US market they have to pay taxes. Capital flight is a red herring.
timacles 2y ago
this argument is along the lines of "if theres global warming why is it cold outside today" The rich prosper precisely because they are in the US.
dumbledoren 2y ago
If the billionaires pack up and move to another country, then those who are willing to pay their due taxes and operate with a lesser profit margin would take the place they left in the market. There is no need to oblige sociopathic profiteers because they threaten to leave. And, where will they go, really? There are considerable taxes in every country that billionaires would consider. And if they choose to cram into some small island tax haven in the Caribbean, the US can easily pressure that tax haven to do anything it wants.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

schnable 2y ago

The problem is that raising top end rates don't go far enough. It's a start, but we also need to raise the lower rates to solve the problem. That, or dramatically cut benefits.

no_wizard 2y ago
I don't think broader tax increases are off the table either, but we haven't even attempted to simply close up the loopholes used by corporations and the ultra wealthy and raise taxes in kind. Once that happens, I think its fair to reassess what to do with any lingering problems of raising revenue.
- schnable 2y ago
  That isn't necessary, we know how much revenue that will raise.