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I got into bitcoin around 2011ish for some time. I was never a True Believer but I was a 'soft believer'. At the time, when people asked me if Bitcoin is the fu

I got into bitcoin around 2011ish for some time. I was never a True Believer but I was a 'soft believer'. At the time, when people asked me if Bitcoin is the future I would always say "I think it or something like it will be very useful". Fast forward 10 years and there's been no actual use of crypto. No killer app. No disrupting the finance world. It seems to be used exclusively by smart people as a means of extracting wealth from people who don't understand it.

AlienRobot 2y ago
Cryptocurrencies is one of those things that makes me embarrassed for the whole tech industry. I wish it was the only thing...
- Retric 2y ago
  The quiet majority who avoids such things are easily lost among all the pump and dump nonsense. A ~single digit percentage of the general population has basically zero morality, but they can have a huge impact. I realized it was likely a profitable long term investment back when bitcoin was ~10-15$, but I objected to it on moral grounds and didn’t get involved. It’s not even something I regret, just another life choice.
  - yieldcrv 2y ago
    which moral grounds? how does that involve buying and holding, the most passive outcome possible
    - Retric 2y ago
      If I buy and hold 1 kg of gold, in 50 years humanity still has that same 1kg of gold but it lost all the resources required to secure that gold from being stolen. As such buying gold “to hold” is actively harmful for humanity, the same is true of crypto. I object to doing things that bring me wealth at the expense of humanity as IMO it’s just a diffuse form of theft. While you may disagree, I hope you can understand that such a stance is based on my personal morality.
      - yieldcrv 2y ago
        In this framework, what kinds of assets are you allowed to own the title towards, and what forms of income and revenue are you allowed to have? are there other forms of wealth - like non-financial/social - that you weigh?
        Retric 2y ago
        Personally I think most productive investments are a net positive which opens many options here. It’s mostly zero sum / predatory behavior like the worst pay to win games or online casinos that I have a problem with. A fast food restaurant isn’t serving particularly healthy food, but it is providing a service people want and minimizing food borne illnesses etc. Similarly buying a T-Bill may arguably support some of the horrors that the US government does, but what are the alternatives revolutions and lawless societies suck. What about you? What do you the externalities of various investments are?
        yieldcrv 2y ago
        so basically this framework only excludes spot commodities. yeah its not common for people to be permanently bullish on commodities outside of a few niches like bitcoin and precious metals, so you don’t hear too much about that aside from those communities. yeah that makes it easy to adhere to, while many other asset classes dont really revolve around scarcity of the asset’s existence and ownership does convey access to a productivity. I understand your criteria now. For me I don’t have that criteria and don’t mind zero sum things. Its an entertaining and stressful player versus player match in a massive multiplayer game. Some kinds of trades I make are not zero sum, but it’s not an important distinction for me. I do have a criteria related to human suffering: I mainly avoid exposure to some sectors like defense contracting and publicly traded prisons. Because the incentives are out of whack and dehumanize people while hoping they suffer, said in obtuse terms. I think there is a flaw in the resource exchange logic you presented. Where you owning 1 kg of gold means the effort to extract that gold had gone to waste. In spot commodities the scarcity and continued demand at higher prices of the commodity is what justifies the further investment into extracting that commodities from harder to reach places. If a single market participant finds utility from the use of that commodity, distinct from hoarding, then acquiring access to more is beneficial. Your hoarding helped. The main difference here is that you are looking at the resource expenditure to acquire the unit you are owning, as opposed to the future utility created by the scarcity you contribute to. That’s a choice, I wonder if there is room to re-evaluate that principle, as I’m not sure we are operating on the same information.
- jspash 2y ago
  Well at least we redeemed ourselves with NFTs huh?
  - lifestyleguru 2y ago
    Honestly with POTUS and his family releasing NFT's I'm not sure whether you're joking.
lifestyleguru 2y ago
> Fast forward 10 years and there's been no actual use of crypto. No killer app. No disrupting the finance world. Just today I answered call on my mom's phone from unknown number. Regarding payout from blockchain investment account. Not the killer app and disruption we deserve, but the only one we got.
amrocha 2y ago
The killer app is crime. Old scams have flourished. Entire new forms of scam have been invented. Crypto currency has been a game changer for criminal organizations.
OsrsNeedsf2P 2y ago
We built useful, legitimate services off crypto (think paying people out for doing work online). But the regulation became insurmountable. I will admit however, almost everyone "interested" in crypto has never made a transaction.
- dylan604 2y ago
  How did crypto solve something that Zelle,PayPayl,cashapp,venmo, etc did not also solve for paying people remotely?
yieldcrv 2y ago
> It seems to be used exclusively by smart people as a means of extracting wealth from people who don't understand it. I'm all for an era of crypto feudalists
dylan604 2y ago
> It seems to be used exclusively by smart people as a means of extracting wealth from people who don't understand it. How is that any different from other financial markets? A fool and his money are easily parted, while targeting desperate people with get rich quick schemes are also an easy play. The crypto/stocks/etc are just different tools to achieve the same result.
- bogwog 2y ago
  > How is that any different from other financial markets? It's unregulated. Although to be fair, it seems everything else is going in that direction too (https://news.bloomberglaw.com/esg/doge-targets-sec-next-for-job-cuts-priority-shifts-explained https://news.bloomberglaw.com/esg/doge-targets-sec-next-for-...)
- thinkingtoilet 2y ago
  Please try and think for a second. You're telling me you can't see the difference in investing in a S&P ETF vs. crypto investing? Really? There is no difference there for you?
  - dylan604 2y ago
    you just put bumpers on it to make a smart ass comment. Investing in the S&P is not the only way to invest with stocks. People trying to take money from people are not peddling S&P investments. In every market down turn, those that are not wealthy end up having to sell of stocks to stop the bleeding. Those that are wealthy increase their wealth by buying up what the others are selling. The concept of a forced market crash is not unthinkable. Especially the current situation. Those that are friendly to the current administration are about to be greatly rewarded.

AlienRobot 2y ago

Cryptocurrencies is one of those things that makes me embarrassed for the whole tech industry. I wish it was the only thing...

Retric 2y ago
The quiet majority who avoids such things are easily lost among all the pump and dump nonsense. A ~single digit percentage of the general population has basically zero morality, but they can have a huge impact. I realized it was likely a profitable long term investment back when bitcoin was ~10-15$, but I objected to it on moral grounds and didn’t get involved. It’s not even something I regret, just another life choice.
- yieldcrv 2y ago
  which moral grounds? how does that involve buying and holding, the most passive outcome possible
  - Retric 2y ago
    If I buy and hold 1 kg of gold, in 50 years humanity still has that same 1kg of gold but it lost all the resources required to secure that gold from being stolen. As such buying gold “to hold” is actively harmful for humanity, the same is true of crypto. I object to doing things that bring me wealth at the expense of humanity as IMO it’s just a diffuse form of theft. While you may disagree, I hope you can understand that such a stance is based on my personal morality.
    - yieldcrv 2y ago
      In this framework, what kinds of assets are you allowed to own the title towards, and what forms of income and revenue are you allowed to have? are there other forms of wealth - like non-financial/social - that you weigh?
      - Retric 2y ago
        Personally I think most productive investments are a net positive which opens many options here. It’s mostly zero sum / predatory behavior like the worst pay to win games or online casinos that I have a problem with. A fast food restaurant isn’t serving particularly healthy food, but it is providing a service people want and minimizing food borne illnesses etc. Similarly buying a T-Bill may arguably support some of the horrors that the US government does, but what are the alternatives revolutions and lawless societies suck. What about you? What do you the externalities of various investments are?
        yieldcrv 2y ago
        so basically this framework only excludes spot commodities. yeah its not common for people to be permanently bullish on commodities outside of a few niches like bitcoin and precious metals, so you don’t hear too much about that aside from those communities. yeah that makes it easy to adhere to, while many other asset classes dont really revolve around scarcity of the asset’s existence and ownership does convey access to a productivity. I understand your criteria now. For me I don’t have that criteria and don’t mind zero sum things. Its an entertaining and stressful player versus player match in a massive multiplayer game. Some kinds of trades I make are not zero sum, but it’s not an important distinction for me. I do have a criteria related to human suffering: I mainly avoid exposure to some sectors like defense contracting and publicly traded prisons. Because the incentives are out of whack and dehumanize people while hoping they suffer, said in obtuse terms. I think there is a flaw in the resource exchange logic you presented. Where you owning 1 kg of gold means the effort to extract that gold had gone to waste. In spot commodities the scarcity and continued demand at higher prices of the commodity is what justifies the further investment into extracting that commodities from harder to reach places. If a single market participant finds utility from the use of that commodity, distinct from hoarding, then acquiring access to more is beneficial. Your hoarding helped. The main difference here is that you are looking at the resource expenditure to acquire the unit you are owning, as opposed to the future utility created by the scarcity you contribute to. That’s a choice, I wonder if there is room to re-evaluate that principle, as I’m not sure we are operating on the same information.
jspash 2y ago
Well at least we redeemed ourselves with NFTs huh?
- lifestyleguru 2y ago
  Honestly with POTUS and his family releasing NFT's I'm not sure whether you're joking.

lifestyleguru 2y ago

> Fast forward 10 years and there's been no actual use of crypto. No killer app. No disrupting the finance world. Just today I answered call on my mom's phone from unknown number. Regarding payout from blockchain investment account. Not the killer app and disruption we deserve, but the only one we got.

amrocha 2y ago

The killer app is crime. Old scams have flourished. Entire new forms of scam have been invented. Crypto currency has been a game changer for criminal organizations.

OsrsNeedsf2P 2y ago

We built useful, legitimate services off crypto (think paying people out for doing work online). But the regulation became insurmountable. I will admit however, almost everyone "interested" in crypto has never made a transaction.

dylan604 2y ago
How did crypto solve something that Zelle,PayPayl,cashapp,venmo, etc did not also solve for paying people remotely?

yieldcrv 2y ago

> It seems to be used exclusively by smart people as a means of extracting wealth from people who don't understand it. I'm all for an era of crypto feudalists

dylan604 2y ago

> It seems to be used exclusively by smart people as a means of extracting wealth from people who don't understand it. How is that any different from other financial markets? A fool and his money are easily parted, while targeting desperate people with get rich quick schemes are also an easy play. The crypto/stocks/etc are just different tools to achieve the same result.

bogwog 2y ago
> How is that any different from other financial markets? It's unregulated. Although to be fair, it seems everything else is going in that direction too (https://news.bloomberglaw.com/esg/doge-targets-sec-next-for-job-cuts-priority-shifts-explained https://news.bloomberglaw.com/esg/doge-targets-sec-next-for-...)
thinkingtoilet 2y ago
Please try and think for a second. You're telling me you can't see the difference in investing in a S&P ETF vs. crypto investing? Really? There is no difference there for you?
- dylan604 2y ago
  you just put bumpers on it to make a smart ass comment. Investing in the S&P is not the only way to invest with stocks. People trying to take money from people are not peddling S&P investments. In every market down turn, those that are not wealthy end up having to sell of stocks to stop the bleeding. Those that are wealthy increase their wealth by buying up what the others are selling. The concept of a forced market crash is not unthinkable. Especially the current situation. Those that are friendly to the current administration are about to be greatly rewarded.