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This is what I love about linux on the desktop, on one thread we've got serious complaints about usability, on another thread we're switching window managers be
by fleitz 14y ago
This is what I love about linux on the desktop, on one thread we've got serious complaints about usability, on another thread we're switching window managers because it won't fit on a CD.
A CD? In 2012? Windows and OS X haven't fit on a CD in almost 10 years and you can barely find a copy of OS X on DVD. Yet the primary concern on linux is not usability but whether it fits on an install CD.
I think there might be higher priority concerns than whether a user is able to install a modern operating system on the Pentium MMX & 8X CD drive they found in the dumpster.
- powerslave12r 14y agoYour point is understandable, but distribution restricted to the size of a CD is a major feature. It fits right in with the linux way of supporting really old hardware. It's not about the newest and shiniest hardware. Debian is known to be a slow moving but very stable distribution. Support for older hardware (without DVD Reader/Writers) might have been a big point of consideration.
- fleitz 14y agoPeople like you and me will have no problem creating a custom install CD that defaults to XFCE to run on our really old hardware. Normal people will download a debian CD and get XFCE and think that's linux on the desktop. What I don't understand is why linux always optimizes for the corner case of a couple ultra cheap geeks who can't stand the idea of upgrading their 300 mhz celeron.
- powerslave12r 14y agoValid point about the option of a slim xfce-based install being available. I disagree about the 'normal people' point. 'Normal people' are less likely to download Debian as opposed to Mint or Ubuntu. If they venture into Debian territory, they're looking for something more and know what they're doing. Which leads me to your third point, that is, I would venture a guess that the number of people who would care about this might not be in the minority after all. (Disclaimer: I have made assumptions about the numbers, if someone has nice numbers to refute/support this argument, please do the honors.) Also, 'ultra cheap geeks' are usually puppets controlled by the management.
- gareim 14y agoExactly this. People that really care about optimizations aren't going to install the default Debian install anyways. They'd do a net install and build from there to get max performance for their old computers. And I love that about Linux. I absolutely love how minimal you can get it (CrunchBang for me is the right mix). But it's time to focus on user experience if we ever want Linux adoption to spread. And that means we have to stop optimizing for computers that came out 10 years ago.
- brdrak 14y ago> People that really care about optimizations aren't going to install the default Debian install anyways. They'd do a net install and build from there to get max performance for their old computers. I recently installed Debian on a Dell server with Broadcom network adapters. Couldn't use the netinstall image because by default Debian doesn't include non-free firmware. It was nice to be able to use CD1 to get a fully functional headless Debian system, to then install the non-free firmware package from a USB flash drive to get network connectivity.
- vacri 14y agoDebian supports a huge number of architectures, not just the 386 that comes in most desktop computers. Not all modern computing devices have the power of Intel Core 2 processors. The other thing is, if people want a sweet enduser experience, they're not going to install the default Debian install anyways. They'll use an enduser-focused distro like Ubuntu.
- cdavid 14y agoLinux is used a lot in countries where buying the last and greatest is not an option, nor is fast internet connection.
- shanemhansen 14y agoMy understanding was that even in those cases, most people just pirate windows xp. I am not even close to a windows lover, but have you seen the system requirements for windows xp? http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314865 http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314865 Basically a 233MGhz processor and 64mb of ram will get you a usable windows xp installation.
- einhverfr 14y agoAgreed with this. I do like being able to install without downloading more than 700MB in software. Saying download the DVD is very annoying, esp when you have a less than perfectly reliable internet connection.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- rdtsc 14y ago> Normal people will download a debian CD and get XFCE and think that's linux on the desktop. Would "normal" people download Debian CDs though? I wonder if this change will pass unnoticed precisely because it is only people like "you and me" that will be interested in Debian.
- icebraining 14y agoNormal people will download a debian CD No, they won't. Most normal people are not even capable of burning an ISO, let alone selecting ("so, do I use i386 or MIPS?") and downloading Debian.
- einhverfr 14y agoI doubt the Debian downloaders are the sort that will think that's Linux on the desktop. Debian is a great distro but their specific download target is, shall we say, somewhat more exclusive than others, such as Fedora or Ubuntu.
- Adam503 14y agoMost of the Open Source/Free Software is far more concerned that new Linux releases can install with no problems in a used computer some low-income person volunteers to help rebuild someplace like Free Geek... "The Adoption Program Free Geek receives donated used computers from the public and Build volunteers refurbish them with care. These computers are then “adopted out” to volunteers in exchange for 24 hours of volunteerism to our Adoption volunteers. Volunteers in the Adoption Program disassemble computers for recycling help receive computer equipment from donors test basic computer components help keep our facility clean Volunteer tasks in the Adoption Program can accommodate a wide range of abilities — we’ll work with you to make sure you can spend the time necessary to earn your computer. No computer experience is required to participate in the program. Adoption volunteers disassembling computers When you complete your 24 hours of volunteer service, you’ll sign up for a basic class on how to use your computer. At the conclusion of the class, you’ll take your new-to-you computer home. Adoption volunteers must take the class in order to receive tech support. You can learn more about What You Get with your adopted computer. It the Adoption Program sounds perfect for you, here’s how you can Get Started. Volunteers can receive one computer per year. http://www.freegeek.org/volunteer/adoption-program/ http://www.freegeek.org/volunteer/adoption-program/
- xentronium 14y ago"Normal people" don't use linux, so I don't buy your argument, sorry. I'd rather linux distributions stopped optimizing for idiots who can't tell what's going on without huge icons. That said, I don't see how xfce is worse than gnome in its current state, so it's entirely win-win situation imho.
- djeikyb 14y agoA number of normal people I know use linux. The scenario is usually: 1) Computer "breaks", ie needs os reinstall 2) they don't have os media 3) I offer a choice of buying a full copy of Windows or trying linux for free. Some that choose linux find it isn't for them. Some stick with linux.
- jonathansizz 14y agoNo, normal people aren't even aware of the existence of Linux. That's primarily where GNOME (and Unity) have gone so badly wrong: optimizing for an audience that doesn't exist.
- lloeki 14y agoMany people aren't, yet these days I'm regularly surprised by random folks (some bordering ludditeness) knowing about Linux's existence and role.
- DanBC 14y agoWhy should those computers[1] go to landfill when they're perfectly capable of doing whatever is needed by the owners? Especially if the "extra functionality" that needs all that power is, well, what? There are continents where Internet speeds are not great (or are expensive) - some of those are first world countries too. (EG Australia). Many people don't care if they can bash the arrow keys on a Google Doodle. They just want to send a bit of email and do a bit of gentle web browsing; maybe a bit of light office work and some pdf reading. WordStar and WordPerfect sold a gajillion copies and are fondly remembered by many. Abiword would cover the needs for 90% of its users. [1] and all the copper; lead; rare earth heavy metals; aluminum; plastics; gold; etc etc.
- fusiongyro 14y agoIMO, it's because optimizing for the 300 MHz Celeron is a concrete technical objective. Optimizing for usability and design takes you right back into the subjective territory most of us are uncomfortable with. You've seen the fighting over Ubuntu's Unity. "Will this fit on a CD?" is a question that can be answered with facts.
- smegel 14y ago"but distribution restricted to the size of a CD is a major feature" For me a major feature would be VirtualBox images ready to go. I haven't installed a Linux distro in years, and I would much rather let Windows/OSX act as the HAL so I just just focus on what I want to use Linux for.
- hammersend 14y agoThe best experience for me is the other way around. Linux does 99 percent of everything I want and lives on the bare metal and if I need some random Windows app I just thaw out one of my VMs until I'm done with it then it goes back into the freezer.
- graue 14y agoOn the other hand, if you're NOT installing from a single CD (which, by your hypothesis, most people aren't), then it really makes no difference what's the default desktop on Debian. It's easy to install whatever you want.
- rwmj 14y agoFedora have a bunch of people giving out CDs throughout the developing world, and according to the discussions that flare up periodically on the Fedora devel list when this topic comes up, the CD size is useful for them. It's more to do with the time taken to download the CD when you have really poor network backwidth, rather than availability of CD/DVD drives. Which makes sense because Fedora almost certainly doesn't run on CD-only era PCs.
- onli 14y agoIt's not given that xfce is necessarily a bad choice. That seems to have played into it, regarding to the comment. Personally, I would say it is the most natural choice for Debian. Also, staying away from DEs regarded as developer-unfriendly like gnome3 or unity fits (remember the eclipse-bug?). Furthermore, developers I know seem to not like medias like dvds, switching instead to the internet where possible, so they are quiet likely not to buy something fancy like a dvd-burner. Or maybe that's just me.
- rijoja 14y agoI agree that xfce is a natural choice for Debian. I suppose that most computers have DVD players, but DVD discs are more expensive than CDs. Even if the difference is rather small it feels unnecessary to waste a DVD when I CD could do the trick. Especially since you only use the installation disc a few times. Having a physical disc has a advantage over USB drives namely that it can be used as a rescue disc later on. Data on a USB drive tends to be overwritten and you might not always have another computer available.
- romaniv 14y agoWhat usability issues were introduced by using XFCE?
- SkyMarshal 14y agoFirst world folks tend to forget there's an entire developing world out there, that is still going from 0 to 1 instead of 1 to 100.
- jlgreco 14y agoFrankly they are likely resolving more usability complaints by switching to XFCE than they are generating.
- est 14y agoyeah, warez still distributes zip volumes in floppy disk size.
- vacri 14y agoI imagine that "it won't fit on a CD" is an easier argument to win than "gnome has lost its way and is no longer suitable to be the default on a Debian system".
- bnegreve 14y agoI agree. Most users are not interested in understanding/testing the new UI concepts introduced in Gnome 3. It cannot be "the default wm" anymore. This is a very diplomatic way to say it.
- scottjad 14y agoA CD? In 2012? Windows and OS X haven't fit on a CD in almost 10 years and you can barely find a copy of OS X on DVD. Most (legal) Windows and OS X users aren't downloading and installing the OS from cd/usb/dvd. Most Debian users are. Restricting size decreases download time and decreases the difficulty of finding installation medium with sufficient space. Also, since it's more work to install additional packages on non-apt-based OSes the benefit to installing initially is greater.
- pippy 14y agoUsability and filesize aren't correlated. Perhaps with some attention from Debian Xfce can fix some of it's usability issues.
- cafebabe 14y agoYou are talking about a first world problem. But Linux distributions are not only for first world countries with high speed Internet available at every square meter (in a major city). It is still important whether Linux can be installed on refurbished hardware in Africa, only by a CD drive. I guess, Apple does not have those users in mind.