5 ms·

I don't think anyone has a problem with europe being a more independent player, it becoming a necessity is what people are upset about. I'd rather have germany

by fxwin 2y ago

I don't think anyone has a problem with europe being a more independent player, it becoming a necessity is what people are upset about. I'd rather have germany make massive investments in infrastructure and health reform than its military.

rafaelmn 2y ago
This line of thinking is exactly what got us into this situation. If you want to outsource your defense how can you be surprised when you get ignored in the Ukraine discussions and when the US feels free to just annex parts of your territory. What's your recourse ?
- fxwin 2y ago
  The same arguments can be made for free trade, and i think most would agree that the world is better off with international trade than without.
  - rafaelmn 2y ago
    There is no free trade, EU was tariff heavy and protectionist since forever, in fact that's probably the primary motivator for creating it - a single European market where they get to control the imports. Trump is brash and escalating it suddenly but this game is not new. I'm all in favor of Europe merging more tightly, scale brings a lot of benefits - moves Trump is making are forcing EU members in this direction where they otherwise wouldn't go so easily for petty interests.
    - emptysongglass 2y ago
      > There is no free trade, EU was tariff heavy and protectionist since forever To add to this as an EU citizen, try and buy any good from the US as a private EU citizen: not only will you be visited with a bill for 25 percent of what you paid, you will also pay a truly staggering "handling fee" to essentially state-sponsored grifters (here in Denmark called "Told") that will ensure you never buy anything from the US again. The US had de minimis allowing US citizens to buy most anything they could imagine from abroad without additional fees on import, which Trump has now thrown out the window, but I can't help but feel we're getting our just desserts here.
- TheOtherHobbes 2y ago
  The 'outsourcing' has always been for the benefit of US defence corporations. There were a number of occasions in the 50s to 70s when the US stepped in directly to neuter world-leading aerospace projects in the UK, forcing the UK to buy from the US instead. Virtually all of the cost of the UK's Trident deterrent goes to the US. And it would be unwise to write off the EU, especially now there's a mass exodus of researchers from the US.
  - rafaelmn 2y ago
    >There were a number of occasions in the 50s to 70s when the US stepped in directly to neuter world-leading aerospace projects in the UK, forcing the UK to buy from the US instead. Exactly, and with the recent moves Trump administration is directly calling out EU to arm - so a good development in my book.
    - lostlogin 2y ago
      It’s weirder than this though. Why would Europe need to rearm? If it’s to defend against potential enemies, why is the US cosying up with those same countries?
- MrBuddyCasino 2y ago
  > This line of thinking is exactly what got us into this situation. This is exactly right and it is insane that people don't see this. The dysfunction that Pax Americana has inflicted upon Europe must go away. A continent that cannot defend itself is not a sovereign continent.
- mrighele 2y ago
  > If you want to outsource your defense It's not only that Outsource defense to USA Outsource production to China Make yourself critically dependent on raw materials from Russia.
  - rafaelmn 2y ago
    Exactly Europe is on a downward spiral into irrelevancy - Trump moves actually give the idea of a relevant EU space.

by fxwin 2y ago

rafaelmn 2y ago

This line of thinking is exactly what got us into this situation. If you want to outsource your defense how can you be surprised when you get ignored in the Ukraine discussions and when the US feels free to just annex parts of your territory. What's your recourse ?

fxwin 2y ago
The same arguments can be made for free trade, and i think most would agree that the world is better off with international trade than without.
- rafaelmn 2y ago
  There is no free trade, EU was tariff heavy and protectionist since forever, in fact that's probably the primary motivator for creating it - a single European market where they get to control the imports. Trump is brash and escalating it suddenly but this game is not new. I'm all in favor of Europe merging more tightly, scale brings a lot of benefits - moves Trump is making are forcing EU members in this direction where they otherwise wouldn't go so easily for petty interests.
  - emptysongglass 2y ago
    > There is no free trade, EU was tariff heavy and protectionist since forever To add to this as an EU citizen, try and buy any good from the US as a private EU citizen: not only will you be visited with a bill for 25 percent of what you paid, you will also pay a truly staggering "handling fee" to essentially state-sponsored grifters (here in Denmark called "Told") that will ensure you never buy anything from the US again. The US had de minimis allowing US citizens to buy most anything they could imagine from abroad without additional fees on import, which Trump has now thrown out the window, but I can't help but feel we're getting our just desserts here.
TheOtherHobbes 2y ago
The 'outsourcing' has always been for the benefit of US defence corporations. There were a number of occasions in the 50s to 70s when the US stepped in directly to neuter world-leading aerospace projects in the UK, forcing the UK to buy from the US instead. Virtually all of the cost of the UK's Trident deterrent goes to the US. And it would be unwise to write off the EU, especially now there's a mass exodus of researchers from the US.
- rafaelmn 2y ago
  >There were a number of occasions in the 50s to 70s when the US stepped in directly to neuter world-leading aerospace projects in the UK, forcing the UK to buy from the US instead. Exactly, and with the recent moves Trump administration is directly calling out EU to arm - so a good development in my book.
  - lostlogin 2y ago
    It’s weirder than this though. Why would Europe need to rearm? If it’s to defend against potential enemies, why is the US cosying up with those same countries?
MrBuddyCasino 2y ago
> This line of thinking is exactly what got us into this situation. This is exactly right and it is insane that people don't see this. The dysfunction that Pax Americana has inflicted upon Europe must go away. A continent that cannot defend itself is not a sovereign continent.
mrighele 2y ago
> If you want to outsource your defense It's not only that Outsource defense to USA Outsource production to China Make yourself critically dependent on raw materials from Russia.
- rafaelmn 2y ago
  Exactly Europe is on a downward spiral into irrelevancy - Trump moves actually give the idea of a relevant EU space.