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This is why I don't get why my EU people are attacking Trump - he singlehandedly gave Europe political capital to rebuild itself as an independent player on the

This is why I don't get why my EU people are attacking Trump - he singlehandedly gave Europe political capital to rebuild itself as an independent player on the international stage. He created an environment where tighter EU integration might take precedence over petty interest squabbles. For example in what other scenario would Germany making massive investments in military be politically acceptable ? Even talking about military on EU level ? Framing this as purely a win for China and Russia is very partisan, this has potential for all non-US countries to get away from under US thumb long term and at least for that we should be grateful to mr. Trump, from his foreign policy it seems like he is not interested in those games as he views them a net loss for US. And the Greenland situation is showing us exactly what happens when you position yourself as leech on US military/NATO.

ddalex 2y ago
Because the EU does NOT want Germany to arm, remember what happened the last couple of times ?
- MrBuddyCasino 2y ago
  I'm not a history buff, are you alluding to anything?
  - lostlogin 2y ago
    Last century there was the big two, World War One and World War Two. If you go back further it’s more complicated, but the short answer is that Germanic states got into wars with their neighbours a lot. The Wikipedia article has categories. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Germany https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Germa... https://historyguy.com/How_Many_Wars_Were_Fought_Between_France_and_Germany_Before_World_War_One.htm https://historyguy.com/How_Many_Wars_Were_Fought_Between_Fra...
    - switch007 2y ago
      To be fair, everyone was warring. War was normal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Uni...
      - lostlogin 2y ago
        It was normal and Germany/Prussia was good at it.
    - MrBuddyCasino 2y ago
      Oh wow, I had no idea! I recommend googling "Adolf Hitler" also.
- kergonath 2y ago
  Both the French and the Poles are urging Germany to rearm. As well as the EU, actually, through both the commission and the parliament. The whole "European countries are afraid of Germany invading" argument is not really a thing.
  - kergonath 2y ago
    For context: the French and the German have been alternatively at war and allies since the times of Clovis and Charlemagne, a millenium before Bismark made modern Germany a thing (in occupied Versailles, in what was perfectly calibrated to be a complete French humiliation). And the Poles were on the wrong side of brutal occupation and a genocide during WWII. So both countries would have good reasons to be very skeptical of a powerful Germany.
- cbg0 2y ago
  > the EU does NOT want Germany to arm The EU is not worried about Germany re-arming, as the world has changed dramatically since WW2 and we have much stronger bonds in Europe than we did when Nazi Germany was around.
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  This is so stupid. The US rearmed Germany immediately after WW2 to be a buffer against an invading USSR. We literally put Nazis back into command as long as they were willing to fight the Russians again. Nobody in NATO was ever afraid of a militarized Germany, except maybe Germans.
fxwin 2y ago
I don't think anyone has a problem with europe being a more independent player, it becoming a necessity is what people are upset about. I'd rather have germany make massive investments in infrastructure and health reform than its military.
- rafaelmn 2y ago
  This line of thinking is exactly what got us into this situation. If you want to outsource your defense how can you be surprised when you get ignored in the Ukraine discussions and when the US feels free to just annex parts of your territory. What's your recourse ?
  - fxwin 2y ago
    The same arguments can be made for free trade, and i think most would agree that the world is better off with international trade than without.
    - rafaelmn 2y ago
      There is no free trade, EU was tariff heavy and protectionist since forever, in fact that's probably the primary motivator for creating it - a single European market where they get to control the imports. Trump is brash and escalating it suddenly but this game is not new. I'm all in favor of Europe merging more tightly, scale brings a lot of benefits - moves Trump is making are forcing EU members in this direction where they otherwise wouldn't go so easily for petty interests.
      - emptysongglass 2y ago
        > There is no free trade, EU was tariff heavy and protectionist since forever To add to this as an EU citizen, try and buy any good from the US as a private EU citizen: not only will you be visited with a bill for 25 percent of what you paid, you will also pay a truly staggering "handling fee" to essentially state-sponsored grifters (here in Denmark called "Told") that will ensure you never buy anything from the US again. The US had de minimis allowing US citizens to buy most anything they could imagine from abroad without additional fees on import, which Trump has now thrown out the window, but I can't help but feel we're getting our just desserts here.
watwut 2y ago
Because they would prefer functional pro democratic world rather then constant struggle for domination with fascists from Russia and USA at the same time. EU people don't want to become poorer or suffer, not even to "own the USA". Europeans you talk about see Russia as a threat. They are not fascists themselves, so Germany having to arm itself more because Russia just got new ally is not a good news.
- rafaelmn 2y ago
  > EU people don't want to become poorer or suffer So when you get other people paying your defense bill, don't be surprised when your territory gets annexed and you get left out of the conversation on the Ukraine issue ?
  - lostlogin 2y ago
    Do you think that’s the motivation, or the new relationship with Russia? Why are new tariffs not applicable to Russia, Belarus and North Korea?
    - rafaelmn 2y ago
      Probably to give Russia concessions in the Ukraine negotiations. In my opinion Trump is trying to do everything he said he would in his campaign, he is trying to get the war in Ukraine over ASAP and be the peace bringer. Even in the leaked Vance messages you saw his view on Europe, which I have to agree with in that case. They feel like they are getting screwed in the EU-US relations and they are looking to pull support, ignoring what the OP said about them being the reserve currency/global police. I guess they see that as a bad deal. I think big picture Trump sees Russia as a regional player and China as US main rival so he doesn't really care about pushing Russia or "winning" in Ukraine. The minerals deal looks like he wants to show he got something for the money spent compared to Biden.
  - watwut 2y ago
    Well, EU did paid and supported Ukraine. EU are not the ones who allied themselves with Russia and tried to bully Ukraine into giving them minerals for nothing in return. America is the only country that took others in NATO into war under article 5. Ukraine was also left out of that conversation, this was just Trump being openly pro-Russia. None of that has anything to do with tariffs.
glenstein 2y ago
>This is why I don't get why my EU people are attacking Trump - he singlehandedly gave Europe political capital to rebuild itself as an independent player on the international stage. What a completely baffling statement. It's like saying the left arm should be grateful that the right arm cut itself off of the body because now the left arm has to strengthen itself. Sabotaging the alliance system that has prevailed since World War II leaving both Europe and the United States more dangerously exposed and compromising the safety of our shared democratic values that were once the bedrock of our alliance. It's so obviously catastrophic that I can't fathom how someone would try to portray this as a win other than out of an appetite for a JV debate team sophistry. Europe is banding together not out of positive diplomatic achievements, but in the same sense that they would band together if a meteor is headed toward Earth and you're asking us to thank the meteor.
- rafaelmn 2y ago
  Having a lapdog status since WW2 is an alliance ? EU and US are not two hands of one body.
switch007 2y ago
Some say many EU politicians are compromised by Russia and China... I know squabbling is the norm for European countries but I feel there are some recent big own goals. Crazy how we can't get our crap together in such times. (Crazy opinion: UK needs to be in the EU again to be the grown up in the trio of UK, France and Germany)
- _t9ow 2y ago
  > I feel there are some recent big own goals I'm not sure I know what you mean. Do you mind elaborating?
- lores 2y ago
  The UK will need a lot of time to be seen again as a grown-up, after electing a string of buffoons and cutting off its nose to spite its face. Even though Starmer looks more stable, a large part of that look is due to his opposition being in complete chaos and functionally useless.
Mindwipe 2y ago
Because it's a bit like someone telling you that they're going to burn your house down so you can claim on the insurance and you'll be better off. It might be technically true in some circumstances, but I still don't want some jackass burning my house down thanks, I like my house. That's why I live there.

ddalex 2y ago

Because the EU does NOT want Germany to arm, remember what happened the last couple of times ?

MrBuddyCasino 2y ago
I'm not a history buff, are you alluding to anything?
- lostlogin 2y ago
  Last century there was the big two, World War One and World War Two. If you go back further it’s more complicated, but the short answer is that Germanic states got into wars with their neighbours a lot. The Wikipedia article has categories. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Germany https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Germa... https://historyguy.com/How_Many_Wars_Were_Fought_Between_France_and_Germany_Before_World_War_One.htm https://historyguy.com/How_Many_Wars_Were_Fought_Between_Fra...
  - switch007 2y ago
    To be fair, everyone was warring. War was normal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Uni...
    - lostlogin 2y ago
      It was normal and Germany/Prussia was good at it.
  - MrBuddyCasino 2y ago
    Oh wow, I had no idea! I recommend googling "Adolf Hitler" also.
kergonath 2y ago
Both the French and the Poles are urging Germany to rearm. As well as the EU, actually, through both the commission and the parliament. The whole "European countries are afraid of Germany invading" argument is not really a thing.
- kergonath 2y ago
  For context: the French and the German have been alternatively at war and allies since the times of Clovis and Charlemagne, a millenium before Bismark made modern Germany a thing (in occupied Versailles, in what was perfectly calibrated to be a complete French humiliation). And the Poles were on the wrong side of brutal occupation and a genocide during WWII. So both countries would have good reasons to be very skeptical of a powerful Germany.
cbg0 2y ago
> the EU does NOT want Germany to arm The EU is not worried about Germany re-arming, as the world has changed dramatically since WW2 and we have much stronger bonds in Europe than we did when Nazi Germany was around.
mrguyorama 2y ago
This is so stupid. The US rearmed Germany immediately after WW2 to be a buffer against an invading USSR. We literally put Nazis back into command as long as they were willing to fight the Russians again. Nobody in NATO was ever afraid of a militarized Germany, except maybe Germans.

fxwin 2y ago

I don't think anyone has a problem with europe being a more independent player, it becoming a necessity is what people are upset about. I'd rather have germany make massive investments in infrastructure and health reform than its military.

rafaelmn 2y ago
This line of thinking is exactly what got us into this situation. If you want to outsource your defense how can you be surprised when you get ignored in the Ukraine discussions and when the US feels free to just annex parts of your territory. What's your recourse ?
- fxwin 2y ago
  The same arguments can be made for free trade, and i think most would agree that the world is better off with international trade than without.
  - rafaelmn 2y ago
    There is no free trade, EU was tariff heavy and protectionist since forever, in fact that's probably the primary motivator for creating it - a single European market where they get to control the imports. Trump is brash and escalating it suddenly but this game is not new. I'm all in favor of Europe merging more tightly, scale brings a lot of benefits - moves Trump is making are forcing EU members in this direction where they otherwise wouldn't go so easily for petty interests.
    - emptysongglass 2y ago
      > There is no free trade, EU was tariff heavy and protectionist since forever To add to this as an EU citizen, try and buy any good from the US as a private EU citizen: not only will you be visited with a bill for 25 percent of what you paid, you will also pay a truly staggering "handling fee" to essentially state-sponsored grifters (here in Denmark called "Told") that will ensure you never buy anything from the US again. The US had de minimis allowing US citizens to buy most anything they could imagine from abroad without additional fees on import, which Trump has now thrown out the window, but I can't help but feel we're getting our just desserts here.

watwut 2y ago

Because they would prefer functional pro democratic world rather then constant struggle for domination with fascists from Russia and USA at the same time. EU people don't want to become poorer or suffer, not even to "own the USA". Europeans you talk about see Russia as a threat. They are not fascists themselves, so Germany having to arm itself more because Russia just got new ally is not a good news.

rafaelmn 2y ago
> EU people don't want to become poorer or suffer So when you get other people paying your defense bill, don't be surprised when your territory gets annexed and you get left out of the conversation on the Ukraine issue ?
- lostlogin 2y ago
  Do you think that’s the motivation, or the new relationship with Russia? Why are new tariffs not applicable to Russia, Belarus and North Korea?
  - rafaelmn 2y ago
    Probably to give Russia concessions in the Ukraine negotiations. In my opinion Trump is trying to do everything he said he would in his campaign, he is trying to get the war in Ukraine over ASAP and be the peace bringer. Even in the leaked Vance messages you saw his view on Europe, which I have to agree with in that case. They feel like they are getting screwed in the EU-US relations and they are looking to pull support, ignoring what the OP said about them being the reserve currency/global police. I guess they see that as a bad deal. I think big picture Trump sees Russia as a regional player and China as US main rival so he doesn't really care about pushing Russia or "winning" in Ukraine. The minerals deal looks like he wants to show he got something for the money spent compared to Biden.
- watwut 2y ago
  Well, EU did paid and supported Ukraine. EU are not the ones who allied themselves with Russia and tried to bully Ukraine into giving them minerals for nothing in return. America is the only country that took others in NATO into war under article 5. Ukraine was also left out of that conversation, this was just Trump being openly pro-Russia. None of that has anything to do with tariffs.

glenstein 2y ago

>This is why I don't get why my EU people are attacking Trump - he singlehandedly gave Europe political capital to rebuild itself as an independent player on the international stage. What a completely baffling statement. It's like saying the left arm should be grateful that the right arm cut itself off of the body because now the left arm has to strengthen itself. Sabotaging the alliance system that has prevailed since World War II leaving both Europe and the United States more dangerously exposed and compromising the safety of our shared democratic values that were once the bedrock of our alliance. It's so obviously catastrophic that I can't fathom how someone would try to portray this as a win other than out of an appetite for a JV debate team sophistry. Europe is banding together not out of positive diplomatic achievements, but in the same sense that they would band together if a meteor is headed toward Earth and you're asking us to thank the meteor.

rafaelmn 2y ago
Having a lapdog status since WW2 is an alliance ? EU and US are not two hands of one body.

switch007 2y ago

Some say many EU politicians are compromised by Russia and China... I know squabbling is the norm for European countries but I feel there are some recent big own goals. Crazy how we can't get our crap together in such times. (Crazy opinion: UK needs to be in the EU again to be the grown up in the trio of UK, France and Germany)

_t9ow 2y ago
> I feel there are some recent big own goals I'm not sure I know what you mean. Do you mind elaborating?
lores 2y ago
The UK will need a lot of time to be seen again as a grown-up, after electing a string of buffoons and cutting off its nose to spite its face. Even though Starmer looks more stable, a large part of that look is due to his opposition being in complete chaos and functionally useless.

Mindwipe 2y ago

Because it's a bit like someone telling you that they're going to burn your house down so you can claim on the insurance and you'll be better off. It might be technically true in some circumstances, but I still don't want some jackass burning my house down thanks, I like my house. That's why I live there.