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Here in the EU, you'd generally just pay VAT of imports. And to be clear, we pay the same VAT on internal goods. To make it convenient for consumers, large for

Here in the EU, you'd generally just pay VAT of imports. And to be clear, we pay the same VAT on internal goods. To make it convenient for consumers, large foreign platforms would automatically handle VAT at point of sale, reducing friction and thereby pushing more import. Some specific things had tariffs - e.g., nuclear reactors, and chinese electric cars - but it was by no means the norm, and I don't think citizens liked this. The Chinese car tariff in particular feels like German automotive lobbying, stifling competition. Tesla, pre-DOGE, also showed that we would have an unsatiable hunger for import of competitive cars, it's just that an F150 isn't a competitive car in EU. Now, because if the trade war, we end up with blanket retaliatory tariffs and a strong push for buying local products, killing imports, that just wasn't there before. US and China was already in a trade war, so I guess that was the current state of affairs there.

clarionbell 2y ago
Actually, EU countries have pretty high tariffs for some US exports, and other countries too, higher than US used to have until today. That's how the common market remains competitive. We lower barriers for trade inside EU, while protecting our market from outside exports. Data is all available. Cars for example, US had tariff of 2.5%, EU 10%.
- myrmidon 2y ago
  > Cars for example, US had tariff of 2.5%, EU 10%. This is highly misleading: Pickup trucks, which is a major share of the US car market, had an import tariff of 25% since 1964 (so it was pretty much the same average tariff level but with the EU doing less targetting).
  - lostlogin 2y ago
    The idea the pickup trucks are wanted in Europe is hilarious.
    - myrmidon 2y ago
      > The idea the pickup trucks are wanted in Europe is hilarious. While demand is much lower than in the US, it's still not zero. But I'm talking about US import tariffs, not EU. "Light trucks" have like 80% market share in the US; if you have 25% tariffs on those (for over 60 years now, too) then there is no room to complain about 10% car tariffs in the EU, full stop. You could make a strong argument that Fords dominance in the segment was significantly helped by protectionism (without those tariffs Ford etc. would face much stiffer foreign competition).
    - arghwhat 2y ago
      The funny thing is that we actually have a quite big commercial market for such utility vehicles, currently met by dropside vans: vehicles built on a van frame with a flatbed or other custom equipment on the back. This is not really that different from how the F-series works either, providing a frame where the rear can be built up dependent on needs. It's just that the F-150 is a terrible fit. Our dropside vans are small with a very large footprint-to-bed ratio, is light and have low fuel consumption, is almost always custom, and has zero luxury or otherwise private appeal. There is no demand for e.g. engine performance, as the light vehicle class has load and towing limits that are easily met. The F-150 is too bulky for casual city use and without a need to optimize have a low footprint-to-bed ratio, is heavy with and thirsty, is often just used "as is" with the stock bed, and is often used privately with a significant "muscle" appeal. In order to be driven with a regular license and not be affected by truck speed limits, tracking requirements and driving/rest time limits, it would still be registered as a light vehicle, making any additional load bearing/towing capacity unusuable. There's nothing wrong with models being extremely optimized for specific markets and unfit for others. I imagine there aren't many EU-style dropside vans in the US, not to mention EU-style trucks. Japanese Kei cars are an even more extreme case of such market optimization.
      - CobaltFire 2y ago
        I drive a Mercedes W447 in the US (though the "crew" version) and get no end of crap from people around me with F150's and the like (I live in an area that is borderline rural/urban and has a ton of farming). Meanwhile I have a larger hauling capacity, get vastly better mileage, have 8 seats when I want them, etc. It's too bad no-one bought these and they went away. Amusingly the Postal Service in our area drives them now.
realityking 2y ago
> The Chinese car tariff in particular feels like German automotive lobbying That’s interesting because German car makers actually lobbied _against_ those tariffs fearing retaliatory tariffs. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/fatal-signal-german-car-industry-slams-eu-china-tariffs-calls-deal-2024-10-04/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/fatal-...
- arghwhat 2y ago
  That's interesting, and if true (what one publicly states does not necessarily reflect ones actions) then the mind remains boggled.
Andrew_nenakhov 2y ago
> And to be clear, we pay the same VAT on internal goods This isn't a fair comparison. Local produces also have VAT reduced by the value of goods they bought locally, so it is not such a burden for a local producer vs importer who doesn't benefit from such VAT reduction at all for his costs.
- arghwhat 2y ago
  > Local produces also have VAT reduced by the value of goods they bought locally, so it is not such a burden for a local producer vs importer who doesn't benefit from such VAT reduction at all for his costs. Huh? VAT is transparent to all involved companies regardless of import/export in such a way that the final transaction to a consumer cover the whole VAT of the value chain. A quick VAT tutorial: --- The local producer buys seeds, and pays a price that includes VAT. They then sell crop for a price that includes VAT. The difference is settled with the government: The local producer gets back all the VAT they paid, and instead give the government all the VAT they collected. A reseller buys local produce at a price that includes VAT, and sells it at a price that includes VAT. They then get back all the VAT they paid (which is exactly what the government got from the local producer from this exact transaction!), and in turn give the government VAT they collect from the final consumer. In the end, the amount of VAT retained by the government is exactly the price paid by the last recipient of the goods. No company in the chain ended up paying VAT out of their own pocket, and no other government earned VAT. --- Now try with imported goods: The foreign producer buys seeds at a price that includes their local VAT. They then sell crops for export at a price with no VAT. The producer gets back all the VAT they paid, and give nothing to their government as they collected none during export. The reseller buys the foreign produce at a price without VAT and instead report and pay VAT themselves to initiate the VAT chain. They sell it at a price that includes VAT. They get all the VAT they paid back, and in turn give the government the VAT they collect form the final consumer. In the end, the amount of VAT retained by the government is exactly the price paid by the last recipient of the goods. No company in the chain ended up paying VAT out of their own pocket, and no other government earned VAT. Granted, the importer's country is the one stuffing their pillows with the VAT, which does not benefit the foreign producer. That's the difference.

clarionbell 2y ago

Actually, EU countries have pretty high tariffs for some US exports, and other countries too, higher than US used to have until today. That's how the common market remains competitive. We lower barriers for trade inside EU, while protecting our market from outside exports. Data is all available. Cars for example, US had tariff of 2.5%, EU 10%.

myrmidon 2y ago
> Cars for example, US had tariff of 2.5%, EU 10%. This is highly misleading: Pickup trucks, which is a major share of the US car market, had an import tariff of 25% since 1964 (so it was pretty much the same average tariff level but with the EU doing less targetting).
- lostlogin 2y ago
  The idea the pickup trucks are wanted in Europe is hilarious.
  - myrmidon 2y ago
    > The idea the pickup trucks are wanted in Europe is hilarious. While demand is much lower than in the US, it's still not zero. But I'm talking about US import tariffs, not EU. "Light trucks" have like 80% market share in the US; if you have 25% tariffs on those (for over 60 years now, too) then there is no room to complain about 10% car tariffs in the EU, full stop. You could make a strong argument that Fords dominance in the segment was significantly helped by protectionism (without those tariffs Ford etc. would face much stiffer foreign competition).
  - arghwhat 2y ago
    The funny thing is that we actually have a quite big commercial market for such utility vehicles, currently met by dropside vans: vehicles built on a van frame with a flatbed or other custom equipment on the back. This is not really that different from how the F-series works either, providing a frame where the rear can be built up dependent on needs. It's just that the F-150 is a terrible fit. Our dropside vans are small with a very large footprint-to-bed ratio, is light and have low fuel consumption, is almost always custom, and has zero luxury or otherwise private appeal. There is no demand for e.g. engine performance, as the light vehicle class has load and towing limits that are easily met. The F-150 is too bulky for casual city use and without a need to optimize have a low footprint-to-bed ratio, is heavy with and thirsty, is often just used "as is" with the stock bed, and is often used privately with a significant "muscle" appeal. In order to be driven with a regular license and not be affected by truck speed limits, tracking requirements and driving/rest time limits, it would still be registered as a light vehicle, making any additional load bearing/towing capacity unusuable. There's nothing wrong with models being extremely optimized for specific markets and unfit for others. I imagine there aren't many EU-style dropside vans in the US, not to mention EU-style trucks. Japanese Kei cars are an even more extreme case of such market optimization.
    - CobaltFire 2y ago
      I drive a Mercedes W447 in the US (though the "crew" version) and get no end of crap from people around me with F150's and the like (I live in an area that is borderline rural/urban and has a ton of farming). Meanwhile I have a larger hauling capacity, get vastly better mileage, have 8 seats when I want them, etc. It's too bad no-one bought these and they went away. Amusingly the Postal Service in our area drives them now.

realityking 2y ago

> The Chinese car tariff in particular feels like German automotive lobbying That’s interesting because German car makers actually lobbied _against_ those tariffs fearing retaliatory tariffs. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/fatal-signal-german-car-industry-slams-eu-china-tariffs-calls-deal-2024-10-04/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/fatal-...

arghwhat 2y ago
That's interesting, and if true (what one publicly states does not necessarily reflect ones actions) then the mind remains boggled.

Andrew_nenakhov 2y ago

> And to be clear, we pay the same VAT on internal goods This isn't a fair comparison. Local produces also have VAT reduced by the value of goods they bought locally, so it is not such a burden for a local producer vs importer who doesn't benefit from such VAT reduction at all for his costs.

arghwhat 2y ago
> Local produces also have VAT reduced by the value of goods they bought locally, so it is not such a burden for a local producer vs importer who doesn't benefit from such VAT reduction at all for his costs. Huh? VAT is transparent to all involved companies regardless of import/export in such a way that the final transaction to a consumer cover the whole VAT of the value chain. A quick VAT tutorial: --- The local producer buys seeds, and pays a price that includes VAT. They then sell crop for a price that includes VAT. The difference is settled with the government: The local producer gets back all the VAT they paid, and instead give the government all the VAT they collected. A reseller buys local produce at a price that includes VAT, and sells it at a price that includes VAT. They then get back all the VAT they paid (which is exactly what the government got from the local producer from this exact transaction!), and in turn give the government VAT they collect from the final consumer. In the end, the amount of VAT retained by the government is exactly the price paid by the last recipient of the goods. No company in the chain ended up paying VAT out of their own pocket, and no other government earned VAT. --- Now try with imported goods: The foreign producer buys seeds at a price that includes their local VAT. They then sell crops for export at a price with no VAT. The producer gets back all the VAT they paid, and give nothing to their government as they collected none during export. The reseller buys the foreign produce at a price without VAT and instead report and pay VAT themselves to initiate the VAT chain. They sell it at a price that includes VAT. They get all the VAT they paid back, and in turn give the government the VAT they collect form the final consumer. In the end, the amount of VAT retained by the government is exactly the price paid by the last recipient of the goods. No company in the chain ended up paying VAT out of their own pocket, and no other government earned VAT. Granted, the importer's country is the one stuffing their pillows with the VAT, which does not benefit the foreign producer. That's the difference.