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>what is really needed is a change in education. we need to teach the next generation that operating in good faith is absolutely essential for the future of man

>what is really needed is a change in education. we need to teach the next generation that operating in good faith is absolutely essential for the future of mankind. How can mankind have any future at all, when education is one of the tools used to indoctrinate children into not wanting children of their own someday? The first priority of any society/civilization must always be that of making the next generation of people... or else that society/civilization will soon cease to exist. And we no longer hold that as a priority. Whatever the solution might be, I do not think that it can use the education system, in whole or in part, without serious reform of the sort that would frighten those who most want to use it. Furthermore, it may be the case that our particular nation is composed of two distinct groups who no longer have enough common values that we can effectively remain a singular nation. At least not without one coming to dominate the other decisively. Which is unfortunate given that there are many foreign powers that would take advantage of any possible divorce, amicable or hostile.

piva00 2y ago
> How can mankind have any future at all, when education is one of the tools used to indoctrinate children into not wanting children of their own someday? The first priority of any society/civilization must always be that of making the next generation of people... or else that society/civilization will soon cease to exist. And we no longer hold that as a priority. Whatever the solution might be, I do not think that it can use the education system, in whole or in part, without serious reform of the sort that would frighten those who most want to use it. Education is in no way indoctrinating children into not wanting children. You are conflating education with the current economical system, which uses education to have a trained workforce to generate value for companies. It's this system that is pushing people to not want kids, when kids are expensive in terms of time and money, where people work under a system that attempts to extract as much time as possible for production, it's just natural people won't be feeling any higher drive to have kids of their own. You are blaming education while the issue is much more pervasive and systemic, we live in a world of abundant goods but precarious labour, we produce a lot but don't feel safe nor relaxed enough to tackle one of the most stressful events in someone's life. Just look at workaholic societies like South Korea and Japan, societal pressures around earning money to support a family, showing status about your job, keeping a career as a mom, etc. eventually completely remove any desire to start families.
- em-bee 2y ago
  absolutely. i just saw a documentary about that. south korea has a birthrate of 0.72. in a few generations the country will be full of elders in poverty because the pension funds have run out of money and there are not enough workers to replenish the funds. https://youtu.be/Ufmu1WD2TSk https://youtu.be/Ufmu1WD2TSk
- NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
  >Just look at workaholic societies like South Korea and Japan, societal pressures around earning money to support a family, So, if we check the unemployed in Japan, they will be baby daddies to six or seven children? It's not workaholism. >Education is in no way indoctrinating children into not wanting children. You understand that this sounds like a lie not because I watch Fox News, but rather because I've had the kids come home telling me about how they were taught that the most important thing that they could do to lower their carbon footprint was to not have children, but that "adoption was just as good"? Granted, I'd agree that it's almost certainly not some official written policy somewhere, but the indoctrination is real and personally witnessed. And it's not just that, there are other examples. >You are conflating education with the current economical system, which uses education to have a trained workforce to If that were ever true, it hasn't been so since your grandparent's time. We don't need a workforce, not enough industry left to require it. Should I just ignore the fallacy where "education system" means whatever is most convenient for your argument rather than the government bureaucracy and social institution that always tends to have "education" either in the agency's name itself or in its official purpose?
  - em-bee 2y ago
    I've had the kids come home telling me about how they were taught that the most important thing that they could do to lower their carbon footprint was to not have children ugh. i understand that this sentiment is going around. but i don't think it is coming from the school or the curriculum. it is more likely a teacher sharing their personal, misguided, opinion. We don't need a workforce, not enough industry left to require it that doesn't change the fact that companies demand trained employees. it's not just industry. every sector demands that employees are handed to them full of experience in their trade. companies don't want to invest into training themselves. likewise parents demand that children finish school ready to get hired into well paid jobs.
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
Dude I live in a hyper red state. The majority of people I know have basically the same common values as friends in Santa Cruz. Now switch to talk in 'propagandized' terms and it switches to extreme, but remove that and just talk and there isn't much difference. They want immigrants gone, but every immigrant they know is hardworking good people and THEY should be allowed to stay. They want crime tougher but their friend who fell out of the world because of fent/mexis they wish could get help not prison. They want capitalism but love their communal national forests and depend on it's deer/elk meat as a huge (normally the majority) source of their protein. They want smaller government/less government services. But their mom is dependant on government services, and their cousin with a disabled kid wouldn't survive without government help/the school specialized help so that is needed/valued, and when they were kids were dependant at points on government food programs so those are needed. But one party talks down to them, says they live in flyover country, and promotes people like Jon Stewart unfairly skewering people they see as like them as it's 'entertainment', while the other party pretends it thinks they have value. So they choose the party, eat up the propaganda, that treats them like people/with at least some dignity.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
  >They want immigrants gone, but every immigrant they know is hardworking good people Immigrants are, in large part, hard-working and decent people. I'd laugh my ass off at the suggestion that I could outwork any day laborer I've seen as I drive past Home Depot. Some drink and get a little rowdy, but not to a degree that would bother me if a citizen did so. That doesn't mean that I'm happy for them to be here, though. Our costs go up as they need to rent and make purchases too. Just because I don't want to pick apples for a living doesn't mean that their presence doesn't mean fewer jobs for Americans in general. Our culture changes in ways that can't be managed. None of these side effects are the sort that can be mitigated without drastically reducing immigration, both of the legal and illegal sort. I don't really want the Chinese setting up secret police stations in my country, or blackmailing every immigrant (even those naturalized as our own citizens) to perform espionage on their behalf. Russians do this shit too. Do you? All the rest of your concerns I suspect I'm more in agreement with you, but the immigration thing isn't good for anyone. These countries are being brain-drained by those who could fix things at home. Who could stop wars and other large-scale abuses. Who could be building the businesses that would life their people out of poverty. But they're over here trying to make a buck.

piva00 2y ago

> How can mankind have any future at all, when education is one of the tools used to indoctrinate children into not wanting children of their own someday? The first priority of any society/civilization must always be that of making the next generation of people... or else that society/civilization will soon cease to exist. And we no longer hold that as a priority. Whatever the solution might be, I do not think that it can use the education system, in whole or in part, without serious reform of the sort that would frighten those who most want to use it. Education is in no way indoctrinating children into not wanting children. You are conflating education with the current economical system, which uses education to have a trained workforce to generate value for companies. It's this system that is pushing people to not want kids, when kids are expensive in terms of time and money, where people work under a system that attempts to extract as much time as possible for production, it's just natural people won't be feeling any higher drive to have kids of their own. You are blaming education while the issue is much more pervasive and systemic, we live in a world of abundant goods but precarious labour, we produce a lot but don't feel safe nor relaxed enough to tackle one of the most stressful events in someone's life. Just look at workaholic societies like South Korea and Japan, societal pressures around earning money to support a family, showing status about your job, keeping a career as a mom, etc. eventually completely remove any desire to start families.

em-bee 2y ago
absolutely. i just saw a documentary about that. south korea has a birthrate of 0.72. in a few generations the country will be full of elders in poverty because the pension funds have run out of money and there are not enough workers to replenish the funds. https://youtu.be/Ufmu1WD2TSk https://youtu.be/Ufmu1WD2TSk
NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
>Just look at workaholic societies like South Korea and Japan, societal pressures around earning money to support a family, So, if we check the unemployed in Japan, they will be baby daddies to six or seven children? It's not workaholism. >Education is in no way indoctrinating children into not wanting children. You understand that this sounds like a lie not because I watch Fox News, but rather because I've had the kids come home telling me about how they were taught that the most important thing that they could do to lower their carbon footprint was to not have children, but that "adoption was just as good"? Granted, I'd agree that it's almost certainly not some official written policy somewhere, but the indoctrination is real and personally witnessed. And it's not just that, there are other examples. >You are conflating education with the current economical system, which uses education to have a trained workforce to If that were ever true, it hasn't been so since your grandparent's time. We don't need a workforce, not enough industry left to require it. Should I just ignore the fallacy where "education system" means whatever is most convenient for your argument rather than the government bureaucracy and social institution that always tends to have "education" either in the agency's name itself or in its official purpose?
- em-bee 2y ago
  I've had the kids come home telling me about how they were taught that the most important thing that they could do to lower their carbon footprint was to not have children ugh. i understand that this sentiment is going around. but i don't think it is coming from the school or the curriculum. it is more likely a teacher sharing their personal, misguided, opinion. We don't need a workforce, not enough industry left to require it that doesn't change the fact that companies demand trained employees. it's not just industry. every sector demands that employees are handed to them full of experience in their trade. companies don't want to invest into training themselves. likewise parents demand that children finish school ready to get hired into well paid jobs.

_DeadFred_ 2y ago

Dude I live in a hyper red state. The majority of people I know have basically the same common values as friends in Santa Cruz. Now switch to talk in 'propagandized' terms and it switches to extreme, but remove that and just talk and there isn't much difference. They want immigrants gone, but every immigrant they know is hardworking good people and THEY should be allowed to stay. They want crime tougher but their friend who fell out of the world because of fent/mexis they wish could get help not prison. They want capitalism but love their communal national forests and depend on it's deer/elk meat as a huge (normally the majority) source of their protein. They want smaller government/less government services. But their mom is dependant on government services, and their cousin with a disabled kid wouldn't survive without government help/the school specialized help so that is needed/valued, and when they were kids were dependant at points on government food programs so those are needed. But one party talks down to them, says they live in flyover country, and promotes people like Jon Stewart unfairly skewering people they see as like them as it's 'entertainment', while the other party pretends it thinks they have value. So they choose the party, eat up the propaganda, that treats them like people/with at least some dignity.

NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
>They want immigrants gone, but every immigrant they know is hardworking good people Immigrants are, in large part, hard-working and decent people. I'd laugh my ass off at the suggestion that I could outwork any day laborer I've seen as I drive past Home Depot. Some drink and get a little rowdy, but not to a degree that would bother me if a citizen did so. That doesn't mean that I'm happy for them to be here, though. Our costs go up as they need to rent and make purchases too. Just because I don't want to pick apples for a living doesn't mean that their presence doesn't mean fewer jobs for Americans in general. Our culture changes in ways that can't be managed. None of these side effects are the sort that can be mitigated without drastically reducing immigration, both of the legal and illegal sort. I don't really want the Chinese setting up secret police stations in my country, or blackmailing every immigrant (even those naturalized as our own citizens) to perform espionage on their behalf. Russians do this shit too. Do you? All the rest of your concerns I suspect I'm more in agreement with you, but the immigration thing isn't good for anyone. These countries are being brain-drained by those who could fix things at home. Who could stop wars and other large-scale abuses. Who could be building the businesses that would life their people out of poverty. But they're over here trying to make a buck.