5 ms·

> The law is unfortunately very vague and thus open to interpretation (which is ultimately subject to the commander in chief, the current clown) That is it exa

> The law is unfortunately very vague and thus open to interpretation (which is ultimately subject to the commander in chief, the current clown) That is it exactly. The US legal/governmental system is a house of cards that has been running for at least 150 years on a bunch of wink-wink-nudge-nudge assumptions that both sides were too scared to test or even acknowledge. An ounce of prevention might have been worth a pound of cure, but now we'll need the cure, and it's probably going to be painful.

MPSFounder 2y ago
The truth is much of it could have been prevented (court packing was one idea that might have been unpopular, but there are many other ideas that could have been acted upon). We live with consequences of failures of the Democratic party for the last decade. Had Ruth Ginsberg been pressured to retire after her numerous health issues, Roe v Wade would never have been overturned (it was a 1 vote swing). Had primaries occurred, I believe the current guy (a felon) would have lost. There were many mistakes, which had they been addressed through any action (literally anything), could most certainly have been prevented. And this time around, it seems actual executive orders are shaping a very different America (that will require generations to undo). Early this week, a college program I am involved in (for STEM high school students over the summer) was cut. It was heartbreaking getting an email inquiring on why it is no longer on our website. Also it is the same song (the guy had travel bans his first admin, and is doing it again in different forms and to a wider range of individuals. We had four years to make these things difficult, but we did nothing). Holding paddles at state of unions seems to be widely believed among Democratic leadership to be effective, and there lies the issue.
- dboreham 2y ago
  Freedom and justice should not depend on these kind of game show tactics. The system should be more resilient. Unfortunately it isn't due to the culture and social norms of the country.
  - Slava_Propanei 2y ago
    [dead]
  - vkou 2y ago
    There isn't a system in the universe that can be resilient against a compromised executive, legislature, and judiciary. Of the three, the judiciary is the least compromised, and it is currently the only one pushing back, but it can only do so much. At the end of the day, you have to not keep voting in criminals.
- atmavatar 2y ago
  > We live with consequences of failures of the Democratic party for the last decade. While that's not completely wrong, I find it fascinating that everyone seems to treat the Republican party as having no culpability. We have a Republican party that's had a policy goal of blowing up the government for a half century with varying levels of how far they were willing to take it, but it's the Democratic party's fault for not saving us from them and the voters that support them.
  - OccamsMirror 2y ago
    Well if the adults don't put up a toddler gate, who's fault is it when the toddler falls down the stairs?
    - watwut 2y ago
      Republicans are not toddlers. If an alcoholic adult falls on stairs, itnis not fault of his wife.
      - OccamsMirror 2y ago
        'Twas just a tongue in cheek explanation.
  - BrenBarn 2y ago
    I mean, I think most people who say this do think the Republicans are more to blame. It's just that they also think the Republicans are beyond hope so there's no point attempting to make them feel guilty. Also we as humans tend to assign a different flavor of blame to people who do bad things than to people who claim to be preventing them while not actually doing so. If a criminal is holding a victim at gunpoint and then they drop their gun and a bystander picks it up and hands it back to the thug, we tend to view that as wrong act even though it's dependent on the criminal's earlier wrong act. Likewise when Republicans do bad things over and over and then Democrats argue that they'll do better but they just hand the same system back over to the Republicans, people are going to be dissatisfied with that. Added to this is the perception that Democratic politicians do this to protect their own political position and preserve what power they individually have, which makes Democratic inaction even more irritating.
- foogazi 2y ago
  > We live with consequences of failures of the Democratic party for the last decade. Yeah, why would the Democrats do this ? /s Please let’s blame the actor This is the same as blaming the people that don’t vote or the people that vote for that matter The buck stops at the Resolute desk
- watwut 2y ago
  I love how your analysis does not blame the perpetrators. And I think this is pervasive and one of root problems - Republicans and conservatives are not blamed for own lies nor plans nor decisions. Instead, democrats are blamed for what Republicans do. Yes, democrats should have been harder on republicans. But again, the same double standards would cause them to be blamed for "gaming the system".
  - BrenBarn 2y ago
    I absolutely would not blame Democrats for gaming the system (as long as they did it in the service of the right goals). At this point it's really just a choice between gaming the system or destroying it.
jmye 2y ago
> both sides were too scared to test or even acknowledge I think that’s harsh. I think the folks in government generally believed that the opposition was there in good faith and with the intent of strengthening the nation, even if they disagreed on how. I don’t think that’s the case any longer and institutions based on good faith don’t work when the group in power is willing to light everything on fire.
- riffraff 2y ago
  I recall McCain in 2008 telling a republican supporter that Obama was a decent person and they shouldn't be afraid if he won. Things have escalated quickly and recently.
  - dragonwriter 2y ago
    2008 was a long time ago, and it was notable at the time because it was already contrary to the overall trend of partisan polarization, which had been consistently escalating since the end of the long period of overlapping realignments that started in the 1930s and settled out in the 1990s. (Political polarization had been high in much of that realignment period, but because the major parties weren't coherently aligned around the high-salience issues that divided the public, that polarization was not strongly partisan.)
- em-bee 2y ago
  i think this is a key point, and this is why this problem will remain until we make some drastic changes. to look at a completely different example: the internet was designed on good faith. year after year more things have been put into place to protect against those not operating in good faith. proof of work against AI bots is just the latest example. what is really needed is a change in education. we need to teach the next generation that operating in good faith is absolutely essential for the future of mankind. we can no longer assume that good faith is the default. it isn't any more.
  - mlinhares 2y ago
    not to be harsh but let me tell you, this is bullshit, there's only rule of law if most people accept it. its all ink in paper, the moment someone tries to subvert or pretend it doesn't exist and there are no consequences the "law" is irrelevant. the laws only exist to the extent that the people that "control" it are willing to exert it. for instance, at any other point in time, everyone involved in the signal-gate scandal would have been fired (and i bet if you were an actual army officer you would still be fired) but the people that enforce the rules can just pretend this isn't a problem and move on. there is no crime if no one is interested in sending you to jail.
tootie 2y ago
This isn't unique to modern American history. Literally all of human civilization meets this criteria. It's all based on a collective acceptance of rules, titles, borders, property. All of which are completely imaginary.

MPSFounder 2y ago

The truth is much of it could have been prevented (court packing was one idea that might have been unpopular, but there are many other ideas that could have been acted upon). We live with consequences of failures of the Democratic party for the last decade. Had Ruth Ginsberg been pressured to retire after her numerous health issues, Roe v Wade would never have been overturned (it was a 1 vote swing). Had primaries occurred, I believe the current guy (a felon) would have lost. There were many mistakes, which had they been addressed through any action (literally anything), could most certainly have been prevented. And this time around, it seems actual executive orders are shaping a very different America (that will require generations to undo). Early this week, a college program I am involved in (for STEM high school students over the summer) was cut. It was heartbreaking getting an email inquiring on why it is no longer on our website. Also it is the same song (the guy had travel bans his first admin, and is doing it again in different forms and to a wider range of individuals. We had four years to make these things difficult, but we did nothing). Holding paddles at state of unions seems to be widely believed among Democratic leadership to be effective, and there lies the issue.

dboreham 2y ago
Freedom and justice should not depend on these kind of game show tactics. The system should be more resilient. Unfortunately it isn't due to the culture and social norms of the country.
- Slava_Propanei 2y ago
  [dead]
- vkou 2y ago
  There isn't a system in the universe that can be resilient against a compromised executive, legislature, and judiciary. Of the three, the judiciary is the least compromised, and it is currently the only one pushing back, but it can only do so much. At the end of the day, you have to not keep voting in criminals.
atmavatar 2y ago
> We live with consequences of failures of the Democratic party for the last decade. While that's not completely wrong, I find it fascinating that everyone seems to treat the Republican party as having no culpability. We have a Republican party that's had a policy goal of blowing up the government for a half century with varying levels of how far they were willing to take it, but it's the Democratic party's fault for not saving us from them and the voters that support them.
- OccamsMirror 2y ago
  Well if the adults don't put up a toddler gate, who's fault is it when the toddler falls down the stairs?
  - watwut 2y ago
    Republicans are not toddlers. If an alcoholic adult falls on stairs, itnis not fault of his wife.
    - OccamsMirror 2y ago
      'Twas just a tongue in cheek explanation.
- BrenBarn 2y ago
  I mean, I think most people who say this do think the Republicans are more to blame. It's just that they also think the Republicans are beyond hope so there's no point attempting to make them feel guilty. Also we as humans tend to assign a different flavor of blame to people who do bad things than to people who claim to be preventing them while not actually doing so. If a criminal is holding a victim at gunpoint and then they drop their gun and a bystander picks it up and hands it back to the thug, we tend to view that as wrong act even though it's dependent on the criminal's earlier wrong act. Likewise when Republicans do bad things over and over and then Democrats argue that they'll do better but they just hand the same system back over to the Republicans, people are going to be dissatisfied with that. Added to this is the perception that Democratic politicians do this to protect their own political position and preserve what power they individually have, which makes Democratic inaction even more irritating.
foogazi 2y ago
> We live with consequences of failures of the Democratic party for the last decade. Yeah, why would the Democrats do this ? /s Please let’s blame the actor This is the same as blaming the people that don’t vote or the people that vote for that matter The buck stops at the Resolute desk
watwut 2y ago
I love how your analysis does not blame the perpetrators. And I think this is pervasive and one of root problems - Republicans and conservatives are not blamed for own lies nor plans nor decisions. Instead, democrats are blamed for what Republicans do. Yes, democrats should have been harder on republicans. But again, the same double standards would cause them to be blamed for "gaming the system".
- BrenBarn 2y ago
  I absolutely would not blame Democrats for gaming the system (as long as they did it in the service of the right goals). At this point it's really just a choice between gaming the system or destroying it.

jmye 2y ago

> both sides were too scared to test or even acknowledge I think that’s harsh. I think the folks in government generally believed that the opposition was there in good faith and with the intent of strengthening the nation, even if they disagreed on how. I don’t think that’s the case any longer and institutions based on good faith don’t work when the group in power is willing to light everything on fire.

riffraff 2y ago
I recall McCain in 2008 telling a republican supporter that Obama was a decent person and they shouldn't be afraid if he won. Things have escalated quickly and recently.
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  2008 was a long time ago, and it was notable at the time because it was already contrary to the overall trend of partisan polarization, which had been consistently escalating since the end of the long period of overlapping realignments that started in the 1930s and settled out in the 1990s. (Political polarization had been high in much of that realignment period, but because the major parties weren't coherently aligned around the high-salience issues that divided the public, that polarization was not strongly partisan.)
em-bee 2y ago
i think this is a key point, and this is why this problem will remain until we make some drastic changes. to look at a completely different example: the internet was designed on good faith. year after year more things have been put into place to protect against those not operating in good faith. proof of work against AI bots is just the latest example. what is really needed is a change in education. we need to teach the next generation that operating in good faith is absolutely essential for the future of mankind. we can no longer assume that good faith is the default. it isn't any more.
- mlinhares 2y ago
  not to be harsh but let me tell you, this is bullshit, there's only rule of law if most people accept it. its all ink in paper, the moment someone tries to subvert or pretend it doesn't exist and there are no consequences the "law" is irrelevant. the laws only exist to the extent that the people that "control" it are willing to exert it. for instance, at any other point in time, everyone involved in the signal-gate scandal would have been fired (and i bet if you were an actual army officer you would still be fired) but the people that enforce the rules can just pretend this isn't a problem and move on. there is no crime if no one is interested in sending you to jail.

tootie 2y ago

This isn't unique to modern American history. Literally all of human civilization meets this criteria. It's all based on a collective acceptance of rules, titles, borders, property. All of which are completely imaginary.