8 ms·

I hope for the best but plan for the worst: I don't think people want to change email addresses very often. How do I know Mozilla will still be doing this in 5

by mmooss 2y ago

I hope for the best but plan for the worst: I don't think people want to change email addresses very often. How do I know Mozilla will still be doing this in 5-10 years? (Edit: Others have pointed out that, if we can bring our own domains, technical users can retain their address. However, for non-technical users that's not an option.) Also, I'm not sure about charging a fee at the start (except for TB contributors) and providing a free tier later - reverse of the usual way of launching a product. Maybe this is a soft launch to shake out the bugs and build a little momentum, and you can pay if you want to take part? Mozilla could do something awesome here. I hate to say it, but here is a chance to start fresh and make big, legacy-breaking changes to Thunderbird. The new audience - which should become the vast majority if they are successful - won't care if it's not like the old Thunderbird (possibly unlike many on HN). Here is a chance to do something special and the mail client is all most users see or understand.

fracus 2y ago
Do people still use Thunderbird client? I would guess 99% of people use their browser.
- rfarley04 2y ago
  I use it and feel like it's...fine. A tad slow, and doesn't have some basic features I'd like. But I haven't found any other non-browser clients that I like better than Thunderbird.
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  I think it's definitely a minority. I use it to follow three Gmail accounts in parallel, since the web version is a PITA to deal with that scenario. Getting access to my local archive is a bonus point.
- nektro 2y ago
  yes i exclusively use thunderbird to check my email
- mcflubbins 2y ago
  I use it for my email. It does exactly what I need it to, works across several platforms. Is Open Source.
- classichasclass 2y ago
  Yes, on desktop (macOS and Linux). It's not a speed demon but I trust it (on Linux I build from source). On Android I use Fastmail's mobile client, but I'm thinking of trying the new mobile Thunderbird there too.
- Beijinger 2y ago
  Web based email is a disease.
  - fracus 2y ago
    What don't you like about it?
    - Beijinger 2y ago
      The handling, the speed, the unavailability of functions and the idea about it.
      - fracus 2y ago
        Unconvincing at best, but most likely not even true.
- jamesfinlayson 2y ago
  I used it at a previous job that didn't have a web option for email, but for me the killer feature was that it was the only mainstream newsgroup client (the job delivered error notifications via newsgroups).
  - xp84 2y ago
    > the job delivered error notifications via newsgroups Well, now I've heard everything. This is either peak greybeard creativity, or that was a thing in like 1992 and a system has been left alone for 30+ years to just do its 90s thing. Either way I kind of love it.
    - jamesfinlayson 2y ago
      Haha probably peak greybeard - the founder and his two friends had been doing Internet stuff since the mid 1990s but the code was much newer. I assume the system worked so they kept doing it. Everything was on-prem too so I guess was an easy option to make logs accessible to everyone without paying for a service.
- apparent 2y ago
  I like not looking at ads when reading my email, so I use it. If it added local AI based drafting assistance, I would check out that feature. I don't care about FF Send, but might use it a couple times a year.
  - fracus 2y ago
    Don't most people use an ad blocker?
    - roelschroeven 2y ago
      No, I think people who use ad blockers are a minority. And it's not getting better with Chrome/Chromium switching to Manifest v3 which has significantly worse support for ad blockers.
    - apparent 2y ago
      I do, but Yahoo for example includes ads in the inbox itself, disguised to look like new messages.
- roelschroeven 2y ago
  At my (small) workplace we all use Thunderbird, and I use it for my personal email as well. A good desktop client, once configured, works a lot better than web-based email clients, especially (but not only) when you have different email accounts that you want to use in the same interface.
- alpaca128 2y ago
  Thunderbird lets the user change the UI and hide almost every single element of it. I don't like clutter. With that feature I could also help an elderly friend after Microsoft abruptly replaced the easy to use Windows Mail with a mess that they didn't even bother to translate into other languages.
- cxr 2y ago
  > I would guess 99% of people use their browser [for email] Your comments reveal a major blind spot. 99% of people (or whatever) are using dedicated email clients instead of webmail. They do everything on their phone.
- lelanthran 2y ago
  > Do people still use Thunderbird client? I would guess 99% of people use their browser. Count me as one. It's nice to have a single local application that is set up for around 5 different accounts on two different providers. I also like the immediacy of search on the local data. When I search for something I don't want to see a spinning busy-beachball indicator.
- abhinavk 2y ago
  Virtually nobody uses mail via web browser on phones, the primary computing device of the world right now.
  - aleph_minus_one 2y ago
    > the primary computing device of the world right now. Whether this is true or not depends a lot on which the bubble is that you live in.
  - fracus 2y ago
    If people are using their phones then they are using their email service's app to check their mail. Not Thunderbird.
- folmar 2y ago
  I do mostly for work (Alpine does not work out that nice if everyone is sending Exchange-blended tag soup), and a lot of my friends do, many of them (non-IT) engineers.
- jrnichols 2y ago
  Not only do I use it for my non-primary email accounts, but I use it for NNTP too. :)
- EbNar 2y ago
  [dead]
ferfumarma 2y ago
I'm deeply skeptical as well. If firefox doesn't have enough compelling ideas and features in its primary domain of the browser, then how are they going to develop a new mail competency in such a complete way that they can take on gmail? Whether they succeed or fail, this will sap resources from the browser team. And it seems overwhelmingly likely to fail.
- brnaftr361 2y ago
  I don't think it's so much that they don't have ideas it's that they're competing with Alphabet's Chrome, who are coincidentally owners of Android, Gmail, YouTube and Google which are internet keystones. I think it's solely by coincidence that I use Firefox rather than Chrome and if I'd started using the Internet a few years later it would have been Chrome. Also isn't a huge proportion of internet activity mobile users, and outside the US the majority of phones are Android, and most people leave things default, thus Firefox is condemned have a minor share essentially since Chrome is packaged natively with Android? Anyways I hope they can dislodge some of the Google train. I abhor using Gmail. Better yet if they can compete with Outlook to some extent. Mozilla actually produces software I trust enough, which has enough utility that I'll install it.
  - aleph_minus_one 2y ago
    At least in Germany, Firefox users are very vocal, and will tell other people all the time that they should switch to Firefox on their PC and laptop if they see them using in particular Chrome, but also Edge. Indeed, Firefox' market share in Germany is larger than in many other countries.
- mikae1 2y ago
  > how are they going to develop a new mail competency in such a complete way that they can take on gmail? They're likely not taking on Gmail, they're taking on Mailbox.org, Proton and Tuta.
- mmooss 2y ago
  GP here: I'm not deeply skeptical; I'm just wondering about these issues.
mdasen 2y ago
> I'm not sure about charging a fee at the start and providing a free tier later I think this is a smart move. Email isn't a platform where you need to conquer the world to be successful. Hey has been doing great business with an only-paid model. Might as well serve the paying customers first and build up revenue. Also, whenever you're launching something new, you generally need to limit onboarding. Google did it with Gmail, Bluesky did it with their service. You can't have a flood of 10 million new users all at once before you've had a chance to scale things. Seems reasonable to let paying users in first given that email doesn't have network lock-in effects. I think there is reasonable skepticism around how committed Mozilla is to this. However, I think that starting with the paid tiers is a smart move given that they'd have to limit signups initially anyway.
- matt-p 2y ago
  I think it shows real maturity to take this approach and makes me feel more comfortable that they'll be sustainable.
- DrillShopper 2y ago
  Plus when I'm paying I know that I'm the customer, not the product.
- snotrockets 2y ago
  > Hey has been doing great business with an only-paid model. [citation needed]
  - eek2121 2y ago
    From the perspective of an end user, I subscribe to hey, have done so since public launch, and I am quite happy with it.
  - dismalaf 2y ago
    They're a private company so numbers aren't available but DHH has said in podcasts it's several million ARR. Not huge but fine for a company of their size with multiple products.
palata 2y ago
> I don't think people want to change email addresses very often. You probably know this already, but people should have their own domain. Then they can change provider without changing the address.
- Mistletoe 2y ago
  The average person is not intelligent enough to have their own domain.
  - eikenberry 2y ago
    Sounds like a business opportunity.
  - 999900000999 2y ago
    Or they have better things to do vs fighting Route53 MX records errors.
    - yakireev 2y ago
      Records, shmekords. The practical experience of having your own domain for your email is that you delegate your domain to Google / Fastmail / Proton / whatever, and it takes care of everything else. Some webmail providers will also let you buy a domain on their own website as a part of registration flow. It really is not hard. Harder than not having a domain of your own, but not as hard as you make it sound.
      - 999900000999 2y ago
        Okay, do you think if we just picked some random person they would have any idea what we're talking about? It's just not something normal people do, but I don't like the snarkiness of implying that's an indicator of intelligence. Otherwise we go down the no true Scotsman rabbit hole, what do you mean you're using Proton. You didn't set up your own mail server ? What do you mean you're using AWS, your not using a solar powered raspberry pi?

by mmooss 2y ago

fracus 2y ago

Do people still use Thunderbird client? I would guess 99% of people use their browser.

rfarley04 2y ago
I use it and feel like it's...fine. A tad slow, and doesn't have some basic features I'd like. But I haven't found any other non-browser clients that I like better than Thunderbird.
makeitdouble 2y ago
I think it's definitely a minority. I use it to follow three Gmail accounts in parallel, since the web version is a PITA to deal with that scenario. Getting access to my local archive is a bonus point.
nektro 2y ago
yes i exclusively use thunderbird to check my email
mcflubbins 2y ago
I use it for my email. It does exactly what I need it to, works across several platforms. Is Open Source.
classichasclass 2y ago
Yes, on desktop (macOS and Linux). It's not a speed demon but I trust it (on Linux I build from source). On Android I use Fastmail's mobile client, but I'm thinking of trying the new mobile Thunderbird there too.
Beijinger 2y ago
Web based email is a disease.
- fracus 2y ago
  What don't you like about it?
  - Beijinger 2y ago
    The handling, the speed, the unavailability of functions and the idea about it.
    - fracus 2y ago
      Unconvincing at best, but most likely not even true.
jamesfinlayson 2y ago
I used it at a previous job that didn't have a web option for email, but for me the killer feature was that it was the only mainstream newsgroup client (the job delivered error notifications via newsgroups).
- xp84 2y ago
  > the job delivered error notifications via newsgroups Well, now I've heard everything. This is either peak greybeard creativity, or that was a thing in like 1992 and a system has been left alone for 30+ years to just do its 90s thing. Either way I kind of love it.
  - jamesfinlayson 2y ago
    Haha probably peak greybeard - the founder and his two friends had been doing Internet stuff since the mid 1990s but the code was much newer. I assume the system worked so they kept doing it. Everything was on-prem too so I guess was an easy option to make logs accessible to everyone without paying for a service.
apparent 2y ago
I like not looking at ads when reading my email, so I use it. If it added local AI based drafting assistance, I would check out that feature. I don't care about FF Send, but might use it a couple times a year.
- fracus 2y ago
  Don't most people use an ad blocker?
  - roelschroeven 2y ago
    No, I think people who use ad blockers are a minority. And it's not getting better with Chrome/Chromium switching to Manifest v3 which has significantly worse support for ad blockers.
  - apparent 2y ago
    I do, but Yahoo for example includes ads in the inbox itself, disguised to look like new messages.
roelschroeven 2y ago
At my (small) workplace we all use Thunderbird, and I use it for my personal email as well. A good desktop client, once configured, works a lot better than web-based email clients, especially (but not only) when you have different email accounts that you want to use in the same interface.
alpaca128 2y ago
Thunderbird lets the user change the UI and hide almost every single element of it. I don't like clutter. With that feature I could also help an elderly friend after Microsoft abruptly replaced the easy to use Windows Mail with a mess that they didn't even bother to translate into other languages.
cxr 2y ago
> I would guess 99% of people use their browser [for email] Your comments reveal a major blind spot. 99% of people (or whatever) are using dedicated email clients instead of webmail. They do everything on their phone.
lelanthran 2y ago
> Do people still use Thunderbird client? I would guess 99% of people use their browser. Count me as one. It's nice to have a single local application that is set up for around 5 different accounts on two different providers. I also like the immediacy of search on the local data. When I search for something I don't want to see a spinning busy-beachball indicator.
abhinavk 2y ago
Virtually nobody uses mail via web browser on phones, the primary computing device of the world right now.
- aleph_minus_one 2y ago
  > the primary computing device of the world right now. Whether this is true or not depends a lot on which the bubble is that you live in.
- fracus 2y ago
  If people are using their phones then they are using their email service's app to check their mail. Not Thunderbird.
folmar 2y ago
I do mostly for work (Alpine does not work out that nice if everyone is sending Exchange-blended tag soup), and a lot of my friends do, many of them (non-IT) engineers.
jrnichols 2y ago
Not only do I use it for my non-primary email accounts, but I use it for NNTP too. :)
EbNar 2y ago
[dead]

ferfumarma 2y ago

I'm deeply skeptical as well. If firefox doesn't have enough compelling ideas and features in its primary domain of the browser, then how are they going to develop a new mail competency in such a complete way that they can take on gmail? Whether they succeed or fail, this will sap resources from the browser team. And it seems overwhelmingly likely to fail.

brnaftr361 2y ago
I don't think it's so much that they don't have ideas it's that they're competing with Alphabet's Chrome, who are coincidentally owners of Android, Gmail, YouTube and Google which are internet keystones. I think it's solely by coincidence that I use Firefox rather than Chrome and if I'd started using the Internet a few years later it would have been Chrome. Also isn't a huge proportion of internet activity mobile users, and outside the US the majority of phones are Android, and most people leave things default, thus Firefox is condemned have a minor share essentially since Chrome is packaged natively with Android? Anyways I hope they can dislodge some of the Google train. I abhor using Gmail. Better yet if they can compete with Outlook to some extent. Mozilla actually produces software I trust enough, which has enough utility that I'll install it.
- aleph_minus_one 2y ago
  At least in Germany, Firefox users are very vocal, and will tell other people all the time that they should switch to Firefox on their PC and laptop if they see them using in particular Chrome, but also Edge. Indeed, Firefox' market share in Germany is larger than in many other countries.
mikae1 2y ago
> how are they going to develop a new mail competency in such a complete way that they can take on gmail? They're likely not taking on Gmail, they're taking on Mailbox.org, Proton and Tuta.
mmooss 2y ago
GP here: I'm not deeply skeptical; I'm just wondering about these issues.

mdasen 2y ago

> I'm not sure about charging a fee at the start and providing a free tier later I think this is a smart move. Email isn't a platform where you need to conquer the world to be successful. Hey has been doing great business with an only-paid model. Might as well serve the paying customers first and build up revenue. Also, whenever you're launching something new, you generally need to limit onboarding. Google did it with Gmail, Bluesky did it with their service. You can't have a flood of 10 million new users all at once before you've had a chance to scale things. Seems reasonable to let paying users in first given that email doesn't have network lock-in effects. I think there is reasonable skepticism around how committed Mozilla is to this. However, I think that starting with the paid tiers is a smart move given that they'd have to limit signups initially anyway.

matt-p 2y ago
I think it shows real maturity to take this approach and makes me feel more comfortable that they'll be sustainable.
DrillShopper 2y ago
Plus when I'm paying I know that I'm the customer, not the product.
snotrockets 2y ago
> Hey has been doing great business with an only-paid model. [citation needed]
- eek2121 2y ago
  From the perspective of an end user, I subscribe to hey, have done so since public launch, and I am quite happy with it.
- dismalaf 2y ago
  They're a private company so numbers aren't available but DHH has said in podcasts it's several million ARR. Not huge but fine for a company of their size with multiple products.

palata 2y ago

> I don't think people want to change email addresses very often. You probably know this already, but people should have their own domain. Then they can change provider without changing the address.

Mistletoe 2y ago
The average person is not intelligent enough to have their own domain.
- eikenberry 2y ago
  Sounds like a business opportunity.
- 999900000999 2y ago
  Or they have better things to do vs fighting Route53 MX records errors.
  - yakireev 2y ago
    Records, shmekords. The practical experience of having your own domain for your email is that you delegate your domain to Google / Fastmail / Proton / whatever, and it takes care of everything else. Some webmail providers will also let you buy a domain on their own website as a part of registration flow. It really is not hard. Harder than not having a domain of your own, but not as hard as you make it sound.
    - 999900000999 2y ago
      Okay, do you think if we just picked some random person they would have any idea what we're talking about? It's just not something normal people do, but I don't like the snarkiness of implying that's an indicator of intelligence. Otherwise we go down the no true Scotsman rabbit hole, what do you mean you're using Proton. You didn't set up your own mail server ? What do you mean you're using AWS, your not using a solar powered raspberry pi?